[thanks for reposting this ;)]

That’s one of the best thing i’ve read so far about that “games are art” argumentation.

I think that this desire to be regarded as art comes from a (defensive) need of validation.
I think they’re indeed refering to cinema and comics (see how scott mcloud references are always thrown in the “games are art” discussions)… they want to be “equal” with those forms or media, and not despised “for just being videogames”.
So maybe this debate is already not starting on a good ground.
Does one ask if TV series are art ? I mean… Friends ? Baywatch ?

Also, the question shouldn’t be “Are videogames art ?”, but “Can a videogames be a piece of art ?”.. well, i think.
I wouldn’t say, to take another example, “Paintings are art”… it makes no sense… to me at least (and that might be conditioned by a certain definition of art).
Some paintings are art (and we could say there are different “levels”), but some aren’t.

Now back to what you’re saying about defining art.. it’s pretty interesting, even outside the “game-art” subject (as was your manifesto, actually).
My problem is that i (still) can’t stick to a single definition of art, so i’m constantly shifting levels. Or sometimes i just don’t care.
Somewhat i’ve put myself out of the issue, and until i have any evidence of the contrary, i’ll just say i’m doing something like.. a craft (i prefer the french word artisanat, but i can’t find a good English equivalent).

I couldn’t agree more with the conclusion ;)

That was a great article, why did you want to take it off ? ;) Anything you weren’t satisfied with, actually ?

I wanted to take it off because I was afraid it would cause even more confusion. The varying definitions of art don’t really help the debate.

But you’re right that this debate should not even be taking place. The best answer to the question that I’ve heard (I forgot who from) is that games will be considered an art form when there are games that are considered art works. Then the only question that remains is “considered by who?” which allows you to choose your own validator. For one it will be an art critic, for another the pres or a philosopher and for many, it will be the audience at large.

The good thing about this answer is that it puts the ball in the camp of the developer: rather than debating endlessly whether and how games can or should be art, just make a game that is undeniably art.

I don’t think there will ever be a game that is undeniably art, if only because some people (for instance, that movie critic I forget the name of) believe that interactivity is opposed to art.

Although this art concept is an interesting subject to me, it’s not as interesting as other things. For instance, I care more about the games (goalless games or with games goals) I create being good for people than I care about whether it’s accepted as art or not by whatever definition by whatever decision-makers. I want to create games that people will feel was a worthwhile use of their time, which changed their thinking, which made them happier and maybe mentally healthier, maybe increasing their level of awareness such that their thoughts are now more subtle, maybe just being a delight that they remember fondly or get their friends to experience too, maybe making a person better, making them more active instead of passive, more thoughtful instead of thoughtless, more in love with life, thinking more clearly. I care about that more than whether it’s art or not, I see the term art as just a shorthand way of condensing all of that into one word.

BTW, I’ve plenty of art experience; my grandmother was a painter, and my father is a piano, violin, and accordian music composer in the classical style and also an expressionist painter in the early expressionist style, both have paintings in galleries (though they are not the most famous artists in the world). So I don’t think my problem is just lack of education in art, I picked up a lot through them; so I dislike the implication that there must be something wrong with someone’s education if they think that all games are art.

I agree that art is shorthand for all you said. So you do care. ;)

When I say “undeniably”, I mean in general. As with all rules (pardon the word), there will always be exceptions. But that doesn’t mean they are not rules. When I say “undeniably”, I of course mean “virtually undeniably”. I am human.

I think that it is undeniable that video games contain art. whether or not the games themselves are art is yet to be decided by society as a whole.

A great example of a beautiful video game is Oblivion. I’m dropping a link to some screenshots here:
http://www.oblivionportal.com/media/screenshots.php

There’s no doubt that the game contains beautiful images. Does that make the game itself a work of art? I really can’t say.

Sir, I found your page via a link on Arthouse games in a response of yours to the interview with Rod Humble. Fittingly, I shall respond to your post by plugging my own blog on this same topic!

Please read, please respond!

I admit . . . it’s long. But it goes fast, I promise.