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| gilesgoat |
 Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:00 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Location: UK
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Well .. I did not mean "super explicit communication", just "something a bit more" you could
do "as a deer" to try to make a bit "more elaborate" the deer life, I think more than
"extremely explicit" in a "human way" it should be just something "soft/subtle in a deer way".
Simple things  Like maybe to have the possibility to scratch, to eat, to wag the tail ..
I don't know very much about deer behaviour (I could tell you well what a billy goat does
but even if "all natural everyday routine" it could look quite as a "threat" for those that don't
know goats - our billy goat Robin is a total softy and tart but this means that he normally
would jump on you and butt you with his horns until you don't start scrtiching and petting him  ).
It's nice to "try to be a polite deer" and show another deer that is "nice to meet you" I am happy and so on ..
it's only that with the current actions it's .. hard to communicate
Well .. just that .. I am sure your artist(s) have their immagination/sensitivity/feelings about
"being a deer" and how they see it. |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:10 pm |
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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More communication is very high on our priorities list. We will keep your and others' comments in mind while we make Phase Two (if you have concrete ideas regarding specific motions or interfaces, please share). And then you should let us know if you feel you can express yourself better (or more interestingly for others  *).
* sometimes less control is more entertaining |
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| gilesgoat |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:16 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Location: UK
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.. besided .. did I mention that basically now I have one full computer almost dedicated "only" to
run the forest ?
I'd feel "guilty/sad" to let my deer "vanish" not being connected |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:26 pm |
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I was wondering about some of the deer who seemed to always be there!
Haha. I know how you feel. When I quit the game, I sort of imagine that my deer remains there sleeping.
You know, another thing that struck me just now, while playing, is that it's not so much ways to communicate that I feel are required but just things to do. It seems to me that players are trying to entertain each other (saves us, game designers, a lot of trouble ). I recognize this from my own behaviour in other multiplayer games as well. I just want to show off or act silly, just to amuse the people I'm playing with. And they return the favour. 
Even errors can be highly amusing in this type of playing (saves the programmers a bunch of headaches as well! ). This is, e.g., why we decided to use collision checking not to avoid obstacles but to show pretty effects. It's a virtual world: it's fun to be able to go and stand inside of a tree or another deer. |
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| Yak |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:16 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
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Michael wrote: Yak,
It's very cute to see you so respectful. I guess that's the difference between a maker and a gamer. The latter often tend to think that the game is theirs just because they bought it (or got it for free in this case).
Yeah, from my own experience I know it can get a bit overwhelming when users - even if motivated purely by a liking and enthusiasm for one's work - start to get too full of "advice and suggestions". The Forest is powerfully charming not least because it *is* your vision. I really like what I've seen so far and I really want to see more, but it's important to me now that it's *yours*. It's like listening to someone tell a story - the audience don't jump in mid-flow and offer alternate plots .
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We are actually planning to introduce some "gameplay" in the future but we will try our best to avoid any type of competition. We agree with you that this would not be appropriate for this project as it would bring people in an unsuitable mood (gaming rather than playing). We in fact have already learned from our mistake of the game of "converting souls" that was part of the Ename Ruin project.
For an idea of the future direction of our plans, have a look here. We'd appreciate any comments on this.
The idea of a guide is very nice in my opinion (although I'm also sure that you'll probably find some deer online who will enjoy providing a "guide" service for newcomers themselves... somehow the gentle nature of the Forest makes you want to be friendly to the other deer you meet). The spells would seem to encourage cooperstion too... The generations thing is very interesting too - I really like the idea of needing to invest a bit of your time as a deer to producing a next generation. I do like the idea of generating an offspring to carry on your line... maybe he wouldn't be identical but there would be things about him that he inherits and which might make you recall an earlier, passed deer with fondness...
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We are actually quite surprised by how interesting the minimalistic design of the current forest is, given that this has always been only a first step in a larger project. But we have learned a lot from observing how people find new ways to play (with each other) and we definitely want to retain this kind of openness.
Yes, although this is an early environment I've really enjoyed finding ways to play... it's nice that just the environment and the interactions you have, such as the smoke and the glow when you touch another deer and the way you can stand "inside" other deer and the trees, themselves invite playfulness without one needing to be told how to play .
Some of the most fun I've had in "conventional" games has been when it is possible to use the controls and environment purely for fun, to do something because it feels good to do it, rather than because one must to stay alive or score points and suchlike. I remember me and a friend of mine used to play the surfing game on linked Atari Lynxes and completely ignore the contest and scoring aspect of it, and just put on some music and do a "dance" together surfing on the same wave . I had more fun doing that than I ever had playing it competitively, where the whole thing became a chore of simply doing more tricks than the other guy.
Certain control actions just *feel* good to do, and part of the pleasure of using a gameworld comes purely from that good feeling and doesn't even require threat, score or competition... in fact trying to get at that pure, underlying pleasure, and separate it out from the need for a conventional gaming structure and distil it into... something else... has been a major goal of my own work in recent years...
meh, but I shan't sit here and blather about game design all night, I could bore for England on that subject .
Suffice to say that what you're doing here strikes a major chord with me .
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On the other hand, we also want the forest to become richer in narrative. Both in the stories that players can experience together as in the stories that we like to tell (which tend to refer to myths and fairy tales as well as contemporary issues, if ever so vaguely).
Yes, I'm really looking forward to seeing the Forest acquire more of a history as it grows . Maybe in a few years' time I'll be sitting here with fond memories of a long-passed deer who used to run in the Forest when it was newly born ...
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I like your suggestion of (aesthetically) rewarding players for doing cool things. It's very inspiring. Thanks.
It's something I've done in a couple of games before now, just added a little "flourish" that the player can perform which has no effect on score or progress or anything but which they can do "just because it's nice"... and I already get a kick out of just running through the trees making puffs of smoke .
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I don't know what you mean by "stotting", but we have a very funny "bounding" animation ready to go in the next phase!...
that sounds excellent . Stotting (also sometimes called "pronking") is something that many hoofed creatures seem to do when playing - it's that bouncing jump on all four legs at once that you'll often see lambs at play doing. My four sheep, two goats and two llamas *all* do it at times, sometimes together all at once (early evening in summer seems to be the favourite time, sometimes they will all chase one another all round the field, leaping as they go. It's really quite amazing to see the llamas doing it - big fluffy animals that they are, 6 foot high at the head, but bounding through the air in great 4-legged leaps, perfectly graceful ).
Anyway I'm not going to sit here waffling at you for hours, I'm going to enjoy the Forest and look forward to seeing how you guys take it forward.
Thanks for bringing it to us . |
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| Yak |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:31 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
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Michael wrote:
Even errors can be highly amusing in this type of playing (saves the programmers a bunch of headaches as well! ). This is, e.g., why we decided to use collision checking not to avoid obstacles but to show pretty effects. It's a virtual world: it's fun to be able to go and stand inside of a tree or another deer.
Yes, I love that stuff, it encourages playfulness and experimentation and, if other deer are involved, a degree of cooperation too .
One of my favourite images from the Stag Night is this one .
Symetrically intersected deer glowing together under the mirror ball. Lovely. |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:53 pm |
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Location: Gent, Belgium
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| Not to mention the floating deer in the background! |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:02 pm |
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As per your long post, Yak, it's music to my ears. Don't stop, don't ever stop!...
It's really good to hear we're not alone in this. And that people like you, with a long history in game design, also come to these ideas. It's heart warming and encouraging.
Especially now that the "official" games industry seems to have turned back towards "gaming for gamers", abandoning the hopeful signals from a few years back (Black & White 2 anyone?  ).
As for the stotting or pronking, will something like this do?
(btw pronken means to show off in Dutch) |
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| gilesgoat |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:22 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Location: UK
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I would not blame completely "the industry" .. a part of this situation (IMHO) is REALLY down
to people too and what they want.
It is true is fucking hard to introuduce "new ideas" but it's also true that some people used
to some stuff are SO "fucking used" to a certain set of ideas they just want "super improvements"
of the same concepts over and over.
I'd say is 50%/50% "fault" of industry/what-people-want.
Anyway THERE IS room for "all", and it's exactly people "trying their different things" that
are needed |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:00 am |
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Well, we're trying to make The Endless Forest outside of the games industry. It has been completely funded by arts organisations so far and hopefully that can continue for a while. And we also make design choices that allow us to work with a fraction of the budgets that are common in the games industry.
We have tried to play the industry "game" with 8 and learned a bitter lesson. But ultimately we're much happier doing smaller projects, if possible non-commercial, for a smaller (and much nicer) audience.
The funny thing is that we're not even trying to be innovative. We have a rather "classicist" approach to art and design. We just do what we feel is right for this medium. And games are not, in our opinion.
It is true that players are often conservative in their tastes but I think this applies more to their choices pertaining content (movie games e.g.). I think, the people who want the same gameplay over and over, are just a relatively small (but loud) group of hardcore players. Auriea and I sometimes find ourselves in the odd position of pleading in favour of a broader market appeal for games. Which, in view of our history as (net) artists, is akward. We were never ones to attempt to please any mainstream audience.
Anyway, suffice it to say that I'm not happy at all with the turn towards more traditional (hardcore) gaming that the games industry has taken. Not as a developer (because we don't find the games industry an attractive place anyway) but as a gamer (I prefer Black & White over its sequel, and I think I'll stick to Ico rather than Shadow of the Colossus). But on the other hand, I do think that this situation increases the desire for alternatives in all sorts of niche groups (that we much prefer as an audience). |
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| gilesgoat |
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:21 am |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Location: UK
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Well ... I think that "games" is now today a concept that can be seen in a "smaller" or "larger" context.
Maybe "game" for the industry means a) something competitive, b) with a goal, c) where there has
to be the way to measure "how one can be a better player than another", d) there has to be a
"score" (that in a way is exaclty that measure), etc. etc.
Then there's another "vision" where a "game" is "something that procures enjoyment and fun".
Then there's "art" .. that is "larger".
Art is not a game, a game can be art too, I like the idea of "making art" I mean it's NOT that
I like to sit down and think "ok, I need to make a game, let's analyze how to make a sucessful
game that sells well".
This is what "industry" does, we don't have to forget that the "purpose" of industry is to
generate profit, what they do is their way to generate profit, the ultimate goal is that not
"their media/instruments".
Art is .. "I have an idea I like, I wish to do it" .. full stop .. one does "what he/she feels" ..
and possibly hope that the most people will like and enjoy it too but even that is not
"the goal of art" art is .. something we have inside our soul, our mind that we like to see
"projected" a bit "more out" so we can almost "touch" it
The bottom line I think is "do what you feel to do and only because you feel to do it"
I said I find "innovative" your forest thing because simply "it's not something you see
around so easly today" .. but someway .. I feel is "a part I had inside me as well since long"
that's why I like it so much .. what's more chillng and nice to "just" a relaxing forest were
nothing can hurt you and be a deer and run around :"> ? .. is .. so nice .. romantic .. |
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| Yak |
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:24 am |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
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Michael wrote: As per your long post, Yak, it's music to my ears. Don't stop, don't ever stop!...
Well I'll certainly be around both here and as a deer in the Forest . Just tell me to shut my pie hole if I start going on too much .
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It's really good to hear we're not alone in this. And that people like you, with a long history in game design, also come to these ideas. It's heart warming and encouraging.
Especially now that the "official" games industry seems to have turned back towards "gaming for gamers", abandoning the hopeful signals from a few years back (Black & White 2 anyone? ).
This kind of stuff interests me *vastly* more than yet-another-online-FPS, shiny and nice looking though those may end up looking... there is no reason *why* gaming should consist purely of shooting and killing things, or competing to be the best... in fact there is a paucity of exactly such gentle, shared experiences as the Forest. I'm not an active online gamer, and part of the reason for that is that I don't necessarily want my experiences to always be aggressive and competitive. It's lovely sometimes just to be able to chill. I'll even do it in big single-player worlds sometimes - just explore, and look at cool scenery, and enjoy the environment - if it makes me feel happy then isn't that just as valid a way to spend time?
I know what you mean about the "conventional" biz, but it has surprised me to find occasional chinks in the armour... I still can't quite believe that we managed to place our Neon project right in the OS of the xbox360. Took me completely by surprise, that did, and it was only through being very lucky tobump into the right people who introduced me to other right people, and it was a battle against the bean-counters every step of the way, but it did end up getting made. And whilst the main focus of the main players is undoubtedly the so-called "hardcore" gamers, Microsoft at least are acknowledging the fact that not all gamers are "hardcore" with the whold Xbox Live Arcade thing for 360 - I had a very interesting meeting with one of the XBLA people the other day where he basically told me he sees it as being "like the Sundance festival for game devs" - a chance for smaller developers to try out projects and ideas which perhaps aren't squarely mainstream, don't take a dev team of 50 two years to produce, and which might appeal to gamers outside of the "core" demographic.
I'm still negotiating to get my feet under the table there, but if it does work out then I see that as a good opportunity to be able to work on stuff that I actually enjoy working on and think is worthwhile without having to either knuckle under and join some big team or sod off and write business software for a living . Should I get the chance I'll certainly be mentioning the Forest as one of the most interesting and original online environments that I've seen in recent times - I have no idea if they would be intersted in such a thing, or indeed if you guys would even be interested in transferring your vision into that environment. I fully respect that you're doing this your way and getting it funded purely as an art project, and that's excellent. My only real motivation for attempting to work within the biz to maybe make some money is so that one day I'll be able to devote myself to some of the more purely artistic things I have in mind .
But nonetheless I will still mention it, purely to point out something that I think is truly excellent and very much to me represents an exploration of a new medium that is actually valid and useful rather than just more people shooting better looking things and making bigger explosions .
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As for the stotting or pronking, will something like this do?
(btw pronken means to show off in Dutch)
that's lovely . Can't wait to do that .
I suspect the word "pronking" did indeed come from the Dutch ... it is often applied to describe the leaping of South African antelope, which does indeed look just like they are "showing off" . Given the Dutch colonial history in that area it may well have been adapted via Afrikaans . |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:45 pm |
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We always found that we played games despite of them being games. So when we started thinking about making games ourselves, we quickly ended up with a list of what our design was not going to include (combat, competition, complicated UIs, etc). We're still working on making such a list with positives instead. We're still quite unsure. For now, I guess, we want to make a game, yes, but without all the things that we don't like in most games (which can be generally defined as "gameplay", I guess, or at least the extent to which gameplay is a priority and the core of the structure).
I'm very happy for you (and for the games industry) that you got your work published on the new XBox. But, after attending some Microsoft presentations at conferences and speaking to some Microsoft employees, we have gotten the creepy impression that they all seem to belong to some strange cult. They're all so damn happy about their products, even if in my ears they sound totally evil. They seem like a bunch of Jehova's witnesses. Really scary.
And the XBox is an ugly machine. Much like the Windows OS. Neon will probably the first beautiful thing ever to be published by Microsoft.
The idea that some casual games arcade would work as a games version of a Sundance festival only shows how little they know or appreciate artistic issues. Film festivals like Sundance are not playgrounds for directors who still need to grow up! They are places were art can be seen. The difference between Sundance and mainstream cinema, is the difference between the Louvre and the shopping mall, and not between kindergarten and college, as Microsoft seems to think.
We're very honoured that you would want to mention our little project to these people. But we really have no interest in making anything for the XBox. Not only will the technical issues take away the firm author's grip that we have now on our project, Microsoft is probably the last publisher we want to get involved with. For the reasons mentioned above and also for their reputation of cancelling promising projects.
If possible, we would like to remain independant of all games publishers. They first make it hard for you to come to an agreement and then they give you a really horrible deal where you should be happy if you can keep your own IP and not go bankrupt when the game is done. The making-money aspect of developers working "within the biz" strikes us as extremely relative and unreliable.
But, by all means, tell them about the Forest. We would love to say "no" when they ask...  |
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| Hoborg |
| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:01 am |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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Quote: You know, another thing that struck me just now, while playing, is that it's not so much ways to communicate that I feel are required but just things to do . It seems to me that players are trying to entertain each other (saves us, game designers, a lot of trouble Wink ). I recognize this from my own behaviour in other multiplayer games as well. I just want to show off or act silly, just to amuse the people I'm playing with. And they return the favour.
YES! This is probably my favorite part of multiplayer games. I noticed, too, that when I play games online with people now, the actual objective of the game is secondary to goofing off. Even in strict FPS style games like Counterstrike or Day Of Defeat where L337 SKILLZ are all that seem to matter, I'm usually the guy running around with a knife and flashbangs or trying to organize the Terrorists in nonviolent protest instead of planting the bomb. |
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| gilesgoat |
| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:00 am |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
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I perfectly understand your point of view Michael and such and I hope/wish the best for
you of course
But to be really fair "don't think that others are better" ... I've seen much worse than that and
unfortunatelly often it all turns down to "have the good luck to find the really nice people" that
often are a "minority" compared to all the rest.
"It's the same everywhere" .. often "even worse" in "smaller realities" than in "bigger realities".
"Small" have the problem of "small" .. "big" have the problem of "big" business is business and
is an art/science/world by its own that, has to be said "does not match well with art/coding at all" I mean
"better to leave it to who can do it", I can't for example, I'd be well pissed off lot
of stuff at the speed of light and I'd be totally out of all if I should run business myself
If you find the right people capable to listen and understand what you are doing then
things can go well, from the business side I mean not that "business" can/should affect your
vision and what/how you do
The point is "it can turn out well" finding the right people, is not that they are not, well maybe
they are not "everywhere" sure .. but yes is a right point/vision "you find the wrong people
and you can very well all the reasons of this world to be well pissed of" .. absolutely true ..
Anyway "focus on what you do" is IMHO "the most important thing" .. "business" .. is one thing, by
its own .. "what you do" .. is another .. at the end of all you wish to do what your heart wishes
and possibly make out a living from it and/or be able to live in some way and do what your
heart feels to do ..
"Business" is just a "compromise possibly temporary situation" |
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