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| insane_cobra |
 Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:16 pm |
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Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 27
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
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| Try to close any unnecessary programs you may have running in the background. Maybe one of them is trying to steal the focus. |
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| Linaaa |
| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:04 pm |
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Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2
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Some thoughts on everything:
- Female deers 
- More surrounding animals / NPC's
- Something game-like event (race or searchquest maybe)
- Windowed mode 
- Mask (*****) over Network options > Password instead of exposing
- Put text info near the action icons to make clear what they do
- Display text on actions ("[Player] rubs against tree.") although it seems you're trying to avoid any text  |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:40 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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We have plans for female deer NPCs.
Any particular reason why windowed mode is desirable?
Why is masking the password important?
We are indeed avoiding text where we can, but we're not nearly as fanatical in this project as we are in 8. Tooltips for the action buttons have indeed been mentioned here before and will probably be added at some point. But there's not much hope for text reports on actions. I don't see the point of that (if there is a point other than MMORPG convention, please let us know) and it reduces the opportunity to fantasize about things. |
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| Linaaa |
| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:11 am |
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Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2
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Michael wrote: We have plans for female deer NPCs.
Hurray ^-^ I rather wanna be one but still ^^
Michael wrote: Any particular reason why windowed mode is desirable?
Yes, so you can just keep it running while you're doing other stuff (internet explorer and whatever), alt-tabbing out of the fullscreen thing is tiresome. I'd run it more often if it's possible to run in windowed mode. ^^
Michael wrote: Why is masking the password important?
It's kinda standard password fields are always masked^^; So other people can't see your password^^
Michael wrote: Tooltips for the action buttons have indeed been mentioned here before and will probably be added at some point.
Especially when there's more actions coming this will be VERY helpful^^; |
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| mwnovak |
| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:56 pm |
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 3
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I'd like to chime in on two suggestions that have been made here:
1) Head-movement control. My only concern with this idea is that it'd promote communication via "human like" gestures: left-right for "no"; up-down for "yes." Same thing with a sort of "head-nod over the shoulder" to communicate "follow me" or some such. These are conventions of nonverbal human communication and, as such, are not really authentic to the context of the environment (we're deer, after all).
I do like the suggestion of adding several "emotive" gestures: calls of varying tones and durations, lying down when not asleep, rolling around, nuzzling, etc.
2) Playfighting. My concern here is that, if an experienced user approaches a newer user and initiates playfighting, the playfighting may seem rather agressive and, as such, not really fitting with the peaceful/tranquil/safe ideal of the environment. What's more, I don't think deer usually playfight with other deer they don't already know. I could be wrong--someone check me on this--but I thought playfighting usually happens amongst younger members of a deer family/clan/whatever... amongst deer who already know each other.
One suggestion that might provide a context for playfighting--and several other types of social interaction--is the establishment of a family/clan structure. Deer tend to travel and forage in groups, so it might be interesting to develop a function whereby deer who "sleep" in the same general area for several consecutive "nights" (or for x amount of cumulative time) or who travel together for some period of time eventually become "marked" as being of the same clan. Once a clan is established, particular behaviors could become available to clan members: playfighting, for example. How's that sound?
--MW |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:29 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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Nice suggestion about the clans. This will certainly become more relevant when the Forest becames larger.
As for deer vs human, I hope you have noticed that your deer avatar has a humanoid face. So we're not too concerned with naturalistic deer behaviour. My personal concern with the head-movement is interface. It would be easy enough to add a button for shaking and one for nodding. But direct control of the head may require something akward like pressing a key while moving the mouse and this is not really compatible with our desire to keep the controls simple.
As for the fighting, we do have plans for that. But it will be part of the deer-life simulation aspect that we want to put in later. And as such, it will probably be more "ritualistic" than agressive, much like with deer in nature where fighting seems to be a way to measure strength (we always compare it to arm wrestling). I don't think we will ever include playfighting as such because it would indeed lead to play behaviour that does not fit with the peaceful/romantic/magical atmosphere we want to achieve and maintain. |
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| mwnovak |
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:30 am |
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 3
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Michael wrote:
As for deer vs human, I hope you have noticed that your deer avatar has a humanoid face. So we're not too concerned with naturalistic deer behaviour. My personal concern with the head-movement is interface. It would be easy enough to add a button for shaking and one for nodding. But direct control of the head may require something akward like pressing a key while moving the mouse and this is not really compatible with our desire to keep the controls simple.
Certainly noticed the humanoid face: I presented your project in a Hypertext Art and Fiction seminar, and about half the class claimed they wouldn't sleep that night thanks to the face-on-deer effect. Weird.
Anyway...
I think my comments about "head up/down left/right" functionality were motivated more by issues of communication than by authenticity to "deer life." One of thing that fascinates me about the present environment is that, as human users, we're not afforded familiar conveniences of human communication... we're forced to consider communication on a fundamentally different level.
For example, I was playing around in the environment this afternoon and (finally) encountered another deer/user... we bayed (or whatever it's called), sniffed, listened, did something that caused a neat circle of yellow "energy" to surround us, sat down, and went to sleep. It was pretty cool, really: the feeling-out of intentions and in-the-moment interests without using conventional modes of human (verbal or nonverbal) communication.
I'm not sure how integral this "de-familiarizing" of communication is to your project, but I find it rather compelling... hence my concern about adding "yes/no"-type gestures and my preference for more "emotive" activities. No idea how any of this fits with your longer-term picture of the environment, but I figured the feedback can't hurt.
--MW |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:52 am |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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I think you understand perfectly what we're trying to do. And that makes us very happy. The last thing we want to make is obscure art. I'd be curious to see a transcript of the seminar you mentioned. (and a picture of the class who must have a troubled conscience if the deer-face would keep them from sleeping...  )
It is definitely quite on purpose that we haven't included any conventional means of communication. I guess this comes from our own experience on the internet that communication often stands in the way of contact (just like information often stands in the way of content). We want the create an environment where people can experience the warmth of human contact. To make sure that nobody ruins this atmosphere, we have to take away some of the tools that people usually use to mess things up (like spoken or written language). |
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| ozwo |
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:04 pm |
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Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 1
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now we can only convert them into christians which results into christian tombstones.
There has to be an option to convert them into pagans , so we get to see big paganstatues .Now i think the small stones next to the church are the pagangraves .or are it just stones ? |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:04 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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If you leave them alone, they will remain pagan. So please leave them alone! The pagan idols are very beautiful!
The small stones are in fact an error that we will fix after the Ename exhibition. |
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| Auriea |
| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:00 am |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 454
Location: at your fingertips
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haha! i want to change them back into pagans too!
we'll see about that  |
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| Yak |
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:10 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 24
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I'm almost hesitant to offer suggestions here, because it's so lovely as it is and it's almost like being allowed to play within the artists' dreams... it's so nice without me sticking my smelly size 11s in and offering opinions .
The last thing I'd want to do is introduce "games" in the conventional sense of it - many people think of a "game" as a structured activity with a goal and if not "winners" and "losers" then at least "better" or "worse" players. To me the whole feel of the Forest is that it's very much not about that kind of thing .
When I'm in the Forest though I do like to play . Not in the sense of a game, just in the sense that newborn lambs in a field play together - running about, zigzagging through the trees, maybe trying deliberately to clip the trees to release the coloured smoke as I go .
It might be nice to have something which gently rewarded such play in a gentle, noncompetitive way, both for the deer playing and any deer watching... puffs of particularly pretty magic smoke when the environment thinks you're at play, for example, as you zigzag between trees... maybe something that would encourage other deer to come and play together too, some kind of (again, gently pretty) effect that was triggered by a herd of deer running together rather than just an individual... something distributed amongst all the participating deer rather than anything centered on a "leader"... again, my whole perception of the Forest is that it doesn't require any deer ever to be a "leader", that to me is part of its charm .
Oh and "stotting" - that joyous leap that antelope sometimes do whilst running - would be a lovely option too. Running along and just jumping for the sheer joy of it .
Wonderful stuff . I like being a deer . |
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| gilesgoat |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:24 pm |
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
Location: UK
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Yes, as my mate Yak says your thing is SO nice and your are doing it so well we don't want
so "spoil/push" your creativity
We are really looking forward about "what comes out of your vision".
Anyway, a couple of little suggestions I think can be left
What I feel is a bit "missing" is the possibility to do some "little deer actions" allowing to have
a "better communication", I mean sometime I'd like to "say" to another deer "Hey, want to take
a run in the woods ?" or simply try to mean something like "yes/no" .. of course all this using
"deer body language" a deer is a deer.
It would be nice also if some actions that the deer already does "in automatich way" could
be actually done by the player like to eat, to scratch with the leg, to leap all this of course would
allow an "increased communication".
For the rest, I like things how you did it, a little bit more of "forest scenery" would be nice
like some plants/flowers/mushrooms you can eat and such.
I don't know "what you have in mind" to me if all this "just" would mean "to live as a deer" is
more than perfect I am really looking forward to see how all this is going to evolve |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:35 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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Yak,
It's very cute to see you so respectful. I guess that's the difference between a maker and a gamer. The latter often tend to think that the game is theirs just because they bought it (or got it for free in this case).
We are actually planning to introduce some "gameplay" in the future but we will try our best to avoid any type of competition. We agree with you that this would not be appropriate for this project as it would bring people in an unsuitable mood (gaming rather than playing). We in fact have already learned from our mistake of the game of "converting souls" that was part of the Ename Ruin project.
For an idea of the future direction of our plans, have a look here. We'd appreciate any comments on this.
We are actually quite surprised by how interesting the minimalistic design of the current forest is, given that this has always been only a first step in a larger project. But we have learned a lot from observing how people find new ways to play (with each other) and we definitely want to retain this kind of openness.
On the other hand, we also want the forest to become richer in narrative. Both in the stories that players can experience together as in the stories that we like to tell (which tend to refer to myths and fairy tales as well as contemporary issues, if ever so vaguely).
I like your suggestion of (aesthetically) rewarding players for doing cool things. It's very inspiring. Thanks.
I don't know what you mean by "stotting", but we have a very funny "bounding" animation ready to go in the next phase!... |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:42 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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gilesgoat,
Both increased means of communiction and (interacting with) more forest vegetation are part of phase two!
The issue of clear communication like "come run with me" and "yes/no" has been discussed a bit on this board before. We're still torn on this because we really like how players give meaning to the gestures that the deer can do. So we're reluctant to define the meaning of these too tightly.
More gestures and activities would definitely add to the fun. But here we are also careful because our interface needs to remain simple and clear. Moving a few animations from the random behaviour to the button bar is probably a good idea, however.
So which ones do you want to control? Eating? Scratching? Any new ones?
Please feel free to make suggestions. Our animator is dying to make more stuff. |
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