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| Michael |
 Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:24 am |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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Well, some conventions are useful. In fact all of them probably are. That's why they're conventions.
But they should be used in limited doses, to allow us to express something new. |
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| axcho |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:55 am |
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Michael wrote: I also think we can do away with games getting progressively more difficult. Perhaps in favour of just offering new things, that are not necessarily more difficult to do. The challenge could be more about understanding the content than beating some boss monster. If you think you need a challenge.
I thought Cave Story did a pretty good job of this, if you take into account the way your ability to tackle harder challenges also increases over time. However, there were quite a few bosses that were way too hard, especially at the end, which I never finished. But I did notice that things like learning to jump over obstacles correctly in the beginning seemed equally challenging as later tasks like learning how to deal with the enemies in the Sand Zone, even though they required mastery of many smaller skills. I don't deny though that there was a slight increase in difficulty as the game progressed.
It's an interesting and complex topic. No simple answers.
So that's one - avoiding an increasing difficulty of new challenges. Any more ideas? |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:52 am |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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| I just dislike the whole convention that games should be difficult in some way. There's many other ways of having fun than overcoming challenges. |
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| Lemming |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:14 am |
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Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Somewhere near Sydney
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Life is a learning curve. So is a new game.
The problem is when the difficulty of controlling the game becomes a mechanism to control the degree to which it is challenging. cf, Forbidden Siren. (I'd be so happy if I could use a mouse to aim in that.) |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:43 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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Life is not a learning curve. That's a cliché. Many people go through life perfectly happy learning nothing. I would even argue that most gamers fit in that category. 
Why should a game by like life anyway?
Why can't a game cater to some "time off" of life? A place where you can sit still and think for a moment. Reflect on life, rather than living it. |
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| Lemming |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:00 pm |
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Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Somewhere near Sydney
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Cliche's exist for a reason... which is ALSO a cliche. 
I'd still argue that life is a learning curve. Some lives just plateau earlier than others.
Lifelike games can and do provide "time off" from life. ie. Escapism. It's not time off from life in general... it's time off from OUR lives. Whether that's in an engaging or passive experience is a different issue.
Why should a game NOT be like life? "Should" is not a word I would use here anyway. This is an attempt to escape from dogma. |
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| ika |
| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:36 pm |
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Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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i believe a lot of people play games to get away from "life" and it s barrier, i find futile to recreate this life into a video game. Games like Rez get away as far as possible from reality and that s what makes it good i find.
Most games trying to mimic reality ofetn fall in the uncany valley
axcho: I loooooved your little fighting game btw. If you ever need help for music and design, lemme kno. I d like to help : ) |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:48 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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| Maybe games, like most art, can be about interesting aspects of life, aspects that deserve more attention. The fact that something merely exists in life, does not justify its presence in art. It should be interesting too. |
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| axcho |
| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:53 am |
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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ika wrote: axcho: I loooooved your little fighting game btw. If you ever need help for music and design, lemme kno. I d like to help : )  That's great, I always appreciate having someone willing to give me feedback on design and stuff. I'll send you a PM about it.
[EDIT]
No PMs allowed on this forum! Okay, well, I'll just write here.
So, do you want to describe the sorts of skills you offer, in terms of music or art or whatever? If you have links to your work that I could see to get an idea of your style and ability, that would help. Of course I'm not in a position to evaluate you as I'm not necessarily offering you anything in return, but I'd just like to have a feel for what kind of stuff you do.
I might as well check your website... Wait, you're that guy! I think I've seen that blog before, through deviantART, looking at the work of your counterpart Esse... I liked Esse's art quite a lot, though I haven't really seen yours before. But cool, so you seem very qualified.  Anyway, as I said, just make a post telling me what you can do, what you want to do to help me, etc. Thanks!
Michael wrote: Maybe games, like most art, can be about interesting aspects of life, aspects that deserve more attention. The fact that something merely exists in life, does not justify its presence in art. It should be interesting too. |
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| axcho |
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:43 am |
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Michael wrote: There's no need to define the experience in negative terms. You could also say that the single experience was "sufficiently satisfactory". If it was, then surely we will want to do it again some day. But not instantly, not continuously, like traditional videogames tend to demand.
(I tend to think of things like this as short holidays exotic places.)
Someone wrote a similar sort of comment recently on Jay Is Games, in relation to the results of the Replay contest:
yow wrote: "Bark in the Dark" got my top vote... but I haven't replayed it... interesting!
A game that can be completed perfectly is very satisfying - but why replay? I have nowhere to go.
Whereas a skill-tester, like "Gimme Friction Baby", has replay value precisely because it is dissatisfying. I can do better, I know I can! Just one more go...
For replay value, Perfection is a Flaw
PS I'm sure this is obvious to many of you, but the discussion here really made it hit home for me. |
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| axcho |
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:55 am |
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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| Michael, it sounds like some other people have picked up on a similar idea to yours, about play-once games. |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:44 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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Thanks for the tip.
Reminds me of a new game we'll be working on soon. One that disables itself after you have played it all the way through. |
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