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Moogie
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 776
Tut tut, trust a church service to bring out the worst in someone, eh? Very Happy Just kidding, just kidding.

It's okay Sarah, I haven't taken anything said here personally. Smile I enjoy discussing the topic of faith and belief, but not when it seems like I'm being... dictated to. I do my utmost to keep my beliefs personal to avoid the same criticism.

As long as everyone can keep from trying to 'convince' others of their beliefs, it can be a nice happy conversation. Smile
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tinfoil
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:30 am Reply with quote
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 66 Location: kentucky usa
Laughing Michael, not only would I like to hear them chant, I'd like to hear their choir. All I can think of is r2d2 and the beeps.
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Michael
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:01 am Reply with quote
Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium
I wonder what god the robots believe in.

Not that I do it often, but I love going to church. But then again, everything is catholic here in Belgium. So the service is probably a lot more ceremonial and solemn than the wild preaching parties I've seen the protestants do on television.

We always visit churches when we're on holiday. Neither of us is Christian. I was even raised an atheist. But we do feel the effect of spirituality in a church. And even if this is down to the talent of the architect, it's still there, that feeling of a supernatural presence. Even if it only says something about how beautiful the imagination of people can be, that's worth a lot to me. That makes god exist in my book.
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Sarah
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 12 Aug 2007 Posts: 1135 Location: Standing amidst the glowing fireflies in the dim twilight.
Moogie wrote:
Tut tut, trust a church service to bring out the worst in someone, eh? Very Happy Just kidding, just kidding.

It's okay Sarah, I haven't taken anything said here personally. Smile I enjoy discussing the topic of faith and belief, but not when it seems like I'm being... dictated to. I do my utmost to keep my beliefs personal to avoid the same criticism.

As long as everyone can keep from trying to 'convince' others of their beliefs, it can be a nice happy conversation. Smile


I have a lot of quoting to do here but maybe I'll do it later... but I'm sorry- because actually LISTENING to a two-and-a-half hour church service with a crazy preacher, not having any food all day, and coming home extremely cranky really got to me.... also I wasn't trying to dictate to you or anything like that or tell you what to do- you seemed kind of confused so the "crazy preacher" tried to clear it up.

All I said.... that was not me saying it. It was the crazy preacher
who got his dumb words engraved in my head.... so blame the crazy preacher for making this mess in the first place! Smile
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Jay
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 36 Location: Australia
Sarah wrote:

makeshifter wrote:
i believe that if there is a single most idiotic thing the Christians have done. it's the fact that they break their own laws in order to try and get people to follow them.

Please explain further?

Crusades, witch burning etc. Even today you have leaders like George Bush who associate people and cultures with 'evil' then invade their countries.

I myself am an strong atheist, hater of mysticism, but this only happened lately after I just got fed up of hearing the delusions of others (mainly my mother's rantings). Now that said I still think its important to respect the lifestyle choices of others, its those that refuse to admit their own shortcomings that I have a problem with.
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Sarah
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 12 Aug 2007 Posts: 1135 Location: Standing amidst the glowing fireflies in the dim twilight.
Jay wrote:
I myself am an strong atheist


I'm truly interested to hear why. Smile If you don't feel like explaining that's ok. But if you do, could you explain to me?
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Moogie
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:56 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 776
The most common reason for atheism is that there's no physical evidence or proof to suggest otherwise, whereas Science often provides concrete answers to questions that are proposed to it. Of course, Science cannot prove the existence of God, but some would argue that it's a more trustworthy source of information than ancient scriptures alone.

Let's not forget that there were originally other books of the Bible that were omitted in later versions, so what you read of it today is not the Bible as it was written. Far, far from it. Because the books have also undergone several translations from different languages since their original conception, meaning any number of interpretations could have been made of the original writings, and the Bible as we know it today is the product of the Church, not the other way round.

Quote:
The writings of the early Church Fathers and the church historian, Eusebius (c.263-340) indicate that with the appearance of the Gospels, the Book of Acts and the letters of the apostles the identity of the emergent Christian churches was taking shape and the question was what material to include in order to define the official body (canon) of Christian writings.

Around the middle of the second century, an influential church leader named Marcion advocated that the Jewish scriptures should be excluded from the Christian canon. In his work Antithesis, Marcion claimed that “the God of the Jews was quite different from God and Father of Jesus”. He believed that Jesus was a new incarnation of God and could not have been born of a woman. Marcion proposed a canon made up of an edited version of the Gospels (mainly Luke) and ten edited letters of Paul whom he considered the foremost evangelist.


Source: http://www.goacom.org/overseas-digest/Religion/Bible-its%20making/canon.htm

According to history, then, the Bible as it came together was greatly influenced by decisions made by church officials as to which writings were acceptable and which weren't, and many were 'edited' (to what extent?) to fit better. If the Bible is truly the word of God, what greater sin is there to omit or re-write parts of it just because they didn't like what they read? Isn't there supposed to be just one God?... If so, I don't understand why people speak of "Christian canon" versus "Jewish canon". Surely the same God spoke to all those involved, and if His word is the ultimate truth, none of the omitted/unedited versions can be in any way wrong? (If Christians think the omitted books were faked, how can they be sure which were fake or real? What if they're all fake? What if they're all real?)

This is the very basic difference between Science and Scripture. With Science, knowledge is gained beyond most reasonable doubt through tests and proven laws of physics, biology, etc. With Scripture, not only have the ancient writings been edited and pages (or entire books) been omitted, but with the added complication of being translated through 3-4 languages, you simply cannot know that what you're reading is what the Lord originally spoke to his saints.

So Atheism is probably the choice for people who are faithless, but hold logic/science/knowledge in high regard, and consider proof to be more important than faith.

What do I think? Hmmm. I think I could absolutely believe that God once communicated to people, even though I question why he hasn't seen fit to guide us now that we're a billion times more dangerous and immoral. I can see that as a possibility, but I can't accept the Bible for what it is today, because I can't accept that it's what He originally wrote. I'd want to read everything, every book, in their original versions; no edits, no omits, none of the Church telling me which bits I should read and which bits I shouldn't. To me, that's mankind editing the words of God, and surely believing those versions would be the biggest Sin of all for me to commit.



“If you will not listen to me… then I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight… I will punish you for your sins seven times over… I will send wild animals against you, destroy you cattle. If in spite of this you still do not listen to me … You will eat the flesh of your sons and daughters… I will abhor you… I will turn your cities into ruins.” [Leviticus, chap 26:14-31]

(Just to highlight one of the points I made in my previous post that you seemed confused over, ["Believe what I say, or suffer incredible violence if you don't."])
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Lyrak
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:11 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 1139 Location: Some Ohio Cornfield
Maybe he just threw up his hands and said "ah, screw it!"

Or people just don't listen.

In any case, I believe in both science AND the mystical-type stuff. Because, well, it's hard to argue with stuff that's right in front of your face (though certain aspects of science I always hold in the sense of "well in 100 years will they still think this?" since, as we all know, the world was once flat and the sun revolved around the earth). But at the same time there are many missing pieces in science as it currently exists. Take the Big Bang Theory... where did that ball of matter come from?

Of course, there is also the head-exploding question of where did the original creator god come from, but I must accept defeat in knowing I may never understand this. But then, it is science which claims to require an explanation for everything.

As for certain measures... rather than say science cannot detect it, I say science cannot detect it YET. So many years ago, what was a molecule? What was a germ? What was an atom? An electron? What caused mental illness?

Something that always interested me were some slides my biology teacher once showed us, to prove that sometimes even now science can be baffled. Around most organisms studied under a certain kind of microscope (or lens, or something... forgive me, the deatils are fuzzy), there appears a strange sort of aura. At first they thought it must be heat - because it was there when the organism was alive but not when it was dead. But, this aura disappeared even before the dead creature went cold. He was an interesting man, that teacher... he taught hard science with a passion, but also seemed as fascinated as I am with the little mysteries that appear here and there, and wasn't afraid of that fool's speculation that leads to new questions that lead to new discovery.

After all, who was Copernicus but a blubbering fool? Who was Einstein but a madman?

Science and spirit are always there, dancing around each other somehow, playing little games with each other but never quite touching. It is that dance which my heart yearns to follow.
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Moogie
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:39 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 776
I've heard something about those auras being the electromagnetic fields around us, I think...? But beyond that I've absolutely no knowledge of it. I'd love to look at some papers about the phenomenon though, if you have anything to hand? Smile


Lol. Here's a reminder of the topic we're supposed to be discussing in this thread.

Quote:
Lately every time I go to a games site, I think I mistakenly ended up at CNN!... It's all pictures of soldiers and warfare. It's disgusting. And don't tell me it's just games: there are more and more recruitment ads for the US army on several games sites. It's sick!


How on earth did it come this far...? xD
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Lyrak
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:42 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 1139 Location: Some Ohio Cornfield
Moogie wrote:
I've heard something about those auras being the electromagnetic fields around us, I think...? But beyond that I've absolutely no knowledge of it. I'd love to look at some papers about the phenomenon though, if you have anything to hand? Smile


Lol. Here's a reminder of the topic we're supposed to be discussing in this thread.

Quote:
Lately every time I go to a games site, I think I mistakenly ended up at CNN!... It's all pictures of soldiers and warfare. It's disgusting. And don't tell me it's just games: there are more and more recruitment ads for the US army on several games sites. It's sick!


How on earth did it come this far...? xD


Unfortunately I don't know of any papers - again, last I remember it from was HS biology.

Elecromagnetic field? Neural signals maybe then? Dunno. Back then I liked to think of them as souls. But then, there's about a million definitions as to what a soul really is, too.

And... LOL I dunno! I was wondering that myself. But I'm too lazy to fish back through the pages to find where we flung off track.
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Moogie
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:51 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 776
I don't think neural signals. I heard about some new research recently where they found evidence suggesting much of our brain's signals are sent with sound rather than electricity. [Edit: Nevermind, I can't find the news article anymore. :/]


We all have an electrical/static charge though, just touch something metal and feel the zap. Smile
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Lyrak
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:58 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 1139 Location: Some Ohio Cornfield
Moogie wrote:
I don't think neural signals. I heard about some new research recently where they found evidence suggesting much of our brain's signals are sent with sound rather than electricity. We all have an electrical/static charge though, just touch something metal and feel the zap. Smile


Ahh sound... reminiscent of some other things I've heard, from the "voices in my head" and otherwise....

Ever heard of the String Theory?

And hm... actually now that I think of it, I had even heard brain signals are often even chemical rather than electrical. Maybe it's sort of a combination deal? For something so complex I wouldn't be surprised.

It's weird... something I learned from psychology... the physiology of your brain can change the ways you think and feel and act, etc. .... but at the same time, certain conscious thought patterns can actually change the physiology of your brain. That's why most people advocate some kind of non-drug therapy, even if it has to be in combination with drugs. You can heal your own brain if you've got somebody that knows how to help you.

And in weirdness about sound (I'm just going on tangents now), supposedly a cat's purr is on some frequency that has been proven to aid in the healing of physical injuries. Haven't found any papers on that one either though, so if somebody has one to back that up I'd love to see it. It would sorta make sense though... cats often purr when they're hurt. Many people say it's to comfort themselves, but it does make you wonder. And... my odd little bumps and bruises healed a lot slower when I was in college (in housing that did not permit pets). I heal faster again now that I've got my kitty in the house. Wink
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Moogie
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:15 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 776
String theory? Absolutely! Fascinating stuff. The more I think about it, the more the Universe just seems like one giant computer- the little strings of pure energy being the 1s and the 0s that make up the fabric of existence.

I've had this little idea of my own for a while, but I reckon that ghosts are anomalous groups of strings resonating on a slightly different frequency than the rest. Like, different dimensions of existence could exist via strings vibrating at different frequency bands, and 'ghosts' exist partway between two dimensions. I know, it's lame. xD But I've just never agreed that ghosts are "souls" or dead people, and that's the best I've come up with so far.
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tinfoil
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:07 am Reply with quote
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 66 Location: kentucky usa
I found several sites on the cat's purr associated with healing. The first one is kinda technical. The second is much mor fun to read. They both have a lot of the same information.

http://www.animalvoice.com/catpurrP.

http://www.paulapeterson.com/CatsPurr.html
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Jay
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:33 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 36 Location: Australia
Sarah wrote:
Jay wrote:
I myself am an strong atheist


I'm truly interested to hear why. Smile If you don't feel like explaining that's ok. But if you do, could you explain to me?

My mother raised me believing in everything supernatural, god, ghosts, aliens, vampires you name it, she had first-hand experiences with these things. Only recently she was diagnosed with delusional/maniac/bipolar disorder confirming my doubts about her ridiculous and bizarre tales.

Crazy mum aside, I started losing faith in god in my early teens when I started to really get into science and unlike Christianity, actually explained why things work the way they do. And then there where questions like: why does God let people hurt each other? Why does god let Satan exist? The more I studied science and history the more atheist I became, my mother's illness was the final nail in the coffin that proved to me anyone is susceptible to having bizarre delusions like speaking with god or seeing spirits.

moogie wrote:
According to history, then, the Bible as it came together was greatly influenced by decisions made by church officials as to which writings were acceptable and which weren't, and many were 'edited' (to what extent?) to fit better.


Yup, the roman catholic church in particular altered much of the Christian scriptures to fit their own agendas. Back in the feudal times religious power was political power. This is why these days some counties have laws to make sure the church and state are kept as separate entities.
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