TALE OF TALES forum ~ View topic - It's about democracy

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< Computer game genres & conventions ~ It's about democracy

tobr

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:32 pm

Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 8

What do you think, is the fact that 99% of all computer games feature violence, action, sports and/or other traditionally "male" themes a democratic issue? Is the fact that 99% of all computer games target young people a democratic issue?

I think it is. Is it possible to make the public realize this? Is it possible to make politicians realize this, and bother?

What would happen if suddenly, the film market was COMPLETELY dominated by war movies, baseball movies and fantasy movies targeted at young men? Yeah sure, there are a lot of such movies getting a lot of attention, but there is still room for other things. What about music, what if there was suddenly NO classical music, very little childrens music, no jazz, no easy listening or ballads, no boybands, no nothing really except, say, gangsta rap? Or the same thing about BOOKS, let's not even go there.

Well it's hard to compare with computer games, since the game market really never had the diversity that almost all other big cultural areas have. Maybe no one sees the problem, because they don't know what they're missing. Removing something is obviously going to make a lot of people missing it and get angry, but if it was never there in the first place, how do you make people care?

Isn't cultural diversity in all areas an important goal for any society that calls itself democratic (unless possibly if it is also extremely [and I mean extremely] capitalistic)? If only some parts of the population get to express themselves or find meaning in a certain medium, isn't that extremely serious from a democratic standpoint?

What are your thoughts on this matter. Sorry if I posted in the wrong category.

Michael

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:31 am

Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium

I like to think that this is because computer games are very young as a medium. It's even hard to call them a medium already. They are still growing and might become a medium some day.
In comparison, if I'm not mistaken, cinema started as some kind of spectacle side show and novels were looked down upon as trivial entertainment.

One of the reasons why this isn't going faster is probably the relative commercial success of the games industry. And perhaps also the rising costs and the relentlessly evolving technology which makes business people very very careful.

But I like to believe that there is hope. Because there is potential.

As a side note, I think your percentage is off. I think there are more than 1% games that are non-violent and less action-oriented. They just don't get as much publicity.

tobr

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:59 am

Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 8

Of course my figures are off, I don't have anything to back them up and I could've written 97% or 90% or 85%, but I just used 99% to convey the right feeling.

But is it really that young? In years, I mean. Gaming started seriously in the 80s. That's 25 years or more. It's definitely young in terms of maturity, but I think 25 years should normally be quite enough for a new medium to have some artists explore it more creatively. Especially for a medium that is so extremely popular.

And in some ways, it's actually been recognised fairly recently as a "serious" type of entertainment. My local newpaper started to review computer games regularly no more than maybe 5 years ago, which IMO is a sign of it being an accepted and established cultural phenomenon.

When I read those reviews, it strikes me how normalised the violence is in computer games. They can start explaining the weapons used in the game before they even explain that the game includes violence. It's like it's completely assumed that a game should include some kind of weapons. I mean, "non-violent" gaming is almost a genre, a label, an exception!

Why is the business so afraid of trying something different, just because the hardcore gamers will shout "boring!!"? Look at The Sims, one of the most succesful games ever! IMO because it appeals to a giant market that isn't interested in shooting and adrenline, but still is interested in passing some time at the computer. Look at Myst and Riven, two of my favourite games, and how successful they were (even though it was many years ago the Myst series was actually a big hit in any way), even though they were all about intellect instead of brute force.

I think it's sad that there seems to be almost no discussion about this in the industry. Even on a forum like this, which is largely about these questions, the discussion seems to run pretty cold.

Well, I'm sure this will all get better in due time... but it might be 20, 30, 50 years away.

MoriartyL

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:15 pm

Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 69 Location: Israel

When looking at themes and genres, you're right: videogames aren't very diverse. But in terms of structures and types of experiences, they are. When someone wants to make an unusual videogame, they make an unusual structure and put the regular themes on top. There will be more interesting themes when and only when developers see themes and stories and worlds as more than retroactive justifications for the structures they've chosen.

Michael

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:45 am

Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium

I disagree that there's even a large variety in structures. Most compiuter games are about overcoming challenges and getting rewards for that. I find that pretty poor in terms of meaning.

Tobr, we don't need more discussions about violence in games or the lack thereof. We need action. We need developers who make games that are different. I don't think the current generation of developers will be persuaded to start making non-violent games by any measure of discussion. We need a new generation of developers!

But currently the technology is largely inacccessible for anyone who isn't a complete computer geek. And, per definition, computer geeks have a very warped view of reality. Many of them seem to think violence is "cool".

So one solution to the problem would be to make the technology more accessible (by making computers more powerful and programming interfaces easier to us). But the people who should be working on this are too busy developing games... Mad

Reptilia

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:59 am

Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 144 Location: At ur farm, milking ur goats

But I like my violent games..It gives me a chance to blow off stress Neutral

Wildbluesun

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:37 am

Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Posts: 4266 Location: London, Land of Tea and Top Hats

Really?

I don't usual find violent games very stress-relieving. I tend to the find that the Forest is the best stress-reliever for me. Somewhere I can go that won't judge me or try to shape me into someone I don't want to be; somewhere where, if I don't like what I look like, I can just put some flowers on, or run through the Crying Idol.

That's something I don't get out of any other game I've ever played. Most games are exciting and adrenaline-pumped for me, and that's exhausting, not relaxing (though exhaustion's good too, in some circumstances).

It's true that games like Endless Ocean have given me some measure of the Forest experience...but the Forest is the only game where I feel accepted. Acceptance can only happen if there are other people around to accept you, so Endless Ocean doesn't count, because I play that as a one-player game. Because the Forest is multiplayer, I can relax, have fun, enjoy the pretty sunbeams, and be accepted.

That's something I can't do very often in real life. And that's something that violent games never have. Not only because I don't find mindless violence especially fun, relaxing, or beautiful; but also because they tend to have such macho, unfriendly communities (young male communities? Or a certain type of young male?).

(I think that was slightly off-topic. I can't tell anymore. Sorry.)

MoriartyL

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:29 pm

Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 69 Location: Israel

Michael wrote:

I disagree that there's even a large variety in structures. Most compiuter games are about overcoming challenges and getting rewards for that. I find that pretty poor in terms of meaning.

Though I agree with you that too much is thought of in simple terms of "challenge/reward", there's a lot of different kinds of challenges, and a lot of ways to reward the player. So I stand by my assertion of diversity.

Quote:

So one solution to the problem would be to make the technology more accessible (by making computers more powerful and programming interfaces easier to us).

I don't think that's enough. It's not tools that are lacking, it's inspiration. The creative people with the potential to be the greatest videogame developers probably aren't interested at all in videogames. So if you stick a tool in front of them, they'll ask "Why should I care?". Making it easier to make games ensures only that more fans of existing games will make imitation games.

Trinket

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:15 pm

Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Posts: 1795 Location: Your bathtub.

Reptilia wrote:

But I like my violent games..It gives me a chance to blow off stress Neutral

Ditto.

When a game is goalless, it let's me think and remember why I was angry is the first place. Confused

Thus, games with grinding helps me. Very Happy

Reptilia

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:24 am

Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 144 Location: At ur farm, milking ur goats

Yeah, if there's no goals, I get annoyed and bored. I love the adrenaline on violent games, and not all of them are multiplayer and have communities. Plus, not all people who play violent games are male. I play first person shooters and last I looked, I didn't have dangley bits.

I enjoy such games as Tomb Raider, God of War, Half-Life, Far Cry, Crysis, etc. Admittedly, the communities on the last three can have imamture brats, but if you spend enough time in the multi-player, you will find nice players.

Michael

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:32 am

Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium

MoriartyL wrote:

Quote:

So one solution to the problem would be to make the technology more accessible (by making computers more powerful and programming interfaces easier to us).

But this is a chicken-or-the egg problem, isn't it?
If there would be more creative games, then more creative people ould make more games. And if more creative people would make games, there would be more creative games. Of course this is true, but the circle needs to be broken. And creating accessible technology would be one step in that direction, I think. I know for a fact that there are artists who would love to use video game technology as a medium but the technology is simply way over their heads.

Also, I think that more playful interfaces to programming games would lead to more creativity. At the moment there is not much difference between programming and bookkeeping. So you get games made by accountants...
(don't get me wrong: I love our accountant, it's just that they don't exactly specialize in creating art and entertainment)

Michael

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:37 am

Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium

Reptilia wrote:

But I like my violent games..It gives me a chance to blow off stress Neutral

That's fine.
But the argument was not necessarily against violent games as such. It was only questioning whether we need so many violent games. This is motivated in part by the fact that most people do not play games. In fact, they look down on games. One of the reasons for that might be because they don't like violent games. So I feel we need a greater variety in games.

path to home

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:33 pm

Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 886 Location: At your request

Michael wrote:

Reptilia wrote:

But I like my violent games..It gives me a chance to blow off stress Neutral

Personally, I love the Wii. while it too has its share or violent games, it also has Wii sports * tennis, golf, bowling, etc..* and cooking mama!! *cooking game* just to name very few. The newest of which I saw was endless ocean. no time limits, nothing linear, no real goals. you just swim underwater and just sit in awe over how beautiful it is.

Blowing off steam is good, you cant just bottle it up, but i feel the best way to let it out is to play a nice peaceful game.

besides, after Half life 2, EVE, and a bunch of other games i have, I pretty much covered any other violent needs i have Razz

Lenina

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:27 pm

Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 77

Michael wrote:

But I like to believe that there is hope. Because there is potential.

I like to think we're already moving in that direction. The wii console itself is a step. It allows for more creative gameplay. Many games, although still goal oriented, do show innovation and thought. Although the Silent Hill series probably isn't your idea of a game that's going in that direction, I think it is. It's atmospheric, and elicits emotion. No one plays those games for the action, or the fighting itself. They play it for the story and their desire to get lost in this world.

Then there are the simpler games, a far cry from the Silent Hill. Cooking Mama, Nintendogs, WTF, among others. These, perhaps Nintendogs less so, appeal to the casual gamer.

Perhaps this isn't quite the change you'd like to see, these games still work within the industry standard of objectives and quests, but the industry itself is changing, slowly.

Reptilia

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:15 pm

Joined: 16 Mar 2008 Posts: 144 Location: At ur farm, milking ur goats

Well, if we're questioning the need for so many violent games, let's question the need for so many sports games. Do we really need 50 zillion basketball/football/baseball games?

Of course. They sell to those that like them. The same thing goes with violent games. No one is forcing people to buy them, just like no one is forcing people to buy sports games. If you don't like a particular genre of game, don't buy it. Simple as that. There's tons of other types of genres. Puzzles, sports, sims, role playing games, card games, board games, word games, etc.

Goal wise, just because you have a goal, doesn't mean the path to complete it has only one method. There can be a dozen or more ways to complete it. Sure, there are games that are more linear, but for the most part, they aren't.

Peaceful games bore the hell out of me. If the game doesn't keep my attention and entertain me, I get rid of it. I honestly have a bit of a violent streak, and I always have. Violent video games give me an outlet, that would otherwise create a grumpy, bitchy, sour Reptilia. I'm sure no one wants that. XD

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