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<  Marketing  ~  Loving indie games...

Michael
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:18 am Reply with quote
Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium
I've always had ambiguous feelings about the socalled independent games. I've always felt that their audience consists virtually exclusively out of game developers and that one of the more important reasons why they exist is to make the games industry feel good about itself. So good that they don't need to innovate anymore. Since somebody else is already doing that.

And I'm not talking about innovative ways to chop of the heads of bumpy monsters and other new ways to gather points or coins. I mean real innovation: seriously thinking about the interactive entertainment medium and working on that broad field, rather than within the very narrow one of traditional game design.

Cloud is such a game. Or at least it tries to be. And it gets the usual response: game developers love it, express their admiration for it, idolize it et cetera. And then they go back to their business. That was fun, now let's do some real work. And they make another head-chopper or coin-collector.

To some extent, I don't blame them. Cloud is a noble attempt. But it's immature. It's student work. It's weak. This is not the game that will bring many non-gamers to the interactive medium. Its design is too muddled for this, its vision too unclear, its content vague. That's normal for student work. And even normal for experimental work: a first step is always only a first step.

The real problem is that these things never go beyond a first step. The industry tolerates and even applauds indie development but it does not sustain it. As a result, if these indie developers want to really get to work, they are more or less forced to make... another head-chopper or coin-collector. Because that's what the publishers will publish, the writers will write about and the players will play.

And there's another side to the problem.

Since these small experiments are so precious and rare, developers and critics alike tend to cherish them and praise them to heights where these experiments can't breathe anymore. There is no room for criticism of these products. Because they are so rare. And so delicate and fragile. Don't criticize them or they might go away and then there is nothing left.

This is very problematic given the immaturity mentioned above. It's only by criticzing the good stuff that it will get better. We all need to learn from each other. It's a very very young medium. And a very very complex one. Criticism and discussion are a vital part of progress.
These indie experiments cannot survive in the outside world. They really are too precious for that. Too young. Too fresh. Their developers all need a few more years to make the little bud bloom.

But who will support that? Cheering them on really doesn't put bread on their plates.

If the games industry really loves these indie efforts so much, it should invest it these rare visionary artists and allow them to explore their ideas and bring them to fruition. Not by hiring them to make the sequel to Prince of Persia but by giving them serious resources, lots of time, a total carte blanche and zero expectations.

Will that ever happen? I doubt it.

All game developers think that innovation is a dime a dozen. They do not value it at all. They think it grows on trees. If only they would have the time and money they all could make the greatest thing. It's the evil publishers who are preventing them from unleashing their creative talents. So if they're going to invest in research, it's going to be in themselves, not in these newbies who haven't proven a thing.

And until that changes, the only place for experimental work in the field is outside of the games industry and not in its second rate citizen's booth for independent game developers.

When you find yourself making a game that game developers don't like, you might be on to something... Wink
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Kastanok
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:07 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 55 Location: UK
And do games developers like Endless Forest?

It true for any medium - innovate material is praised and quickly forgotten. It's like in movies, art films are shown at Cannes and specialised theatres and then disappear.

With the rise of internet-delivered and advertised material (including games), it's easier for developers to take risks and to get their accoplishments (that's definately not spelt right...) recognised. Even better, they can get instand honest feedback from not just developers but users. If you introduced a new feature or game we, the users, didn't like we'd tell you about it.

Not that we've had that situation yet Razz
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Michael
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium
Kastanok wrote:
And do games developers like Endless Forest?

I'm afraid some do... Wink
So we're not done yet... Evil or Very Mad

Kastanok wrote:
With the rise of internet-delivered and advertised material (including games), it's easier for developers to take risks and to get their accoplishments (that's definately not spelt right...) recognised. Even better, they can get instand honest feedback from not just developers but users. If you introduced a new feature or game we, the users, didn't like we'd tell you about it.

Not that we've had that situation yet Razz

We're working on this. Smile But it requires a whole new approach to doing business as well. On top of all the work involved with making these games in the first place. But it's definitely worth figuring out how to do this.
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Michael
Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:00 pm Reply with quote
Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium
The first post in this thread was triggered by a post in Chris Bateman's blog "Only a Game". Upon reading it, he sent me a personal answer, which I'm republishing here, with his permission (even though it's slightly more personal than a regular forum post).

Chris Bateman wrote:

Just briefly, I think you have a fair point, but I feel that you are too
deeply entrenched in your position for it to be helpful at this time. I work
with game developers day in day out: they do not think innovation is a dime
a dozen, many do not like working on the same boring projects - but
publishers decide what gets paid and what does not. Blaming the developers
is harsh - do you have any idea how many interesting and innovative projects
we have consulted on that fell by the wayside because the publishers shot
them down? More than four times the number that have gone ahead. It's a
harsh world out there for innovators.

And many people at GDC looked at Cloud with total confusion, like they
couldn't understand what the point is. Perhaps you should see this as
encouraging. Smile

I am committed to praising any and all attempts at innovation and
redirection, even when they are flawed. I freely admit Cloud has problems,
but still, they set out with a new idea (what can we do with clouds?) and I
want to encourage that.

I want an art house games community as much as you, but I fear your
viewpoint goes too far and in effect makes the art community seem hostile
and unwelcoming. "We don't like your kind around here..." Smile It comes across
somewhat as if you are criticising Cloud because it doesn't do what you
would do if it was your project, and that seems mean spirited, especially
given that these are students who are just coming into the industry. I
appreciate that isn't the case - but how do you think your comments would
make the team who made this project feel? If artists like you don't support
them, they will end up listening to other people and making games the way
everyone else does. You could be as much a part of the problem as the
developers if you aren't willing to hold out an olive branch to people who
want to lean towards art... Let's encourage even the tiniest steps towards
artistic games - because if we don't, what hope is there?

Anyway, you have to listen to your heart, but if we do not encourage people
who are trying I don't see how we will ever escape the gulag of violent
games we are currently trapped within.
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Michael
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:21 am Reply with quote
Site Administrator Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 8065 Location: Gent, Belgium
I know I sound harsh in my criticism sometimes. I partly blame my incomplete mastery of the English language. But I must admit that I can be especially critical of things that get close to some of my hopes for the interactive medium. Cloud is no different.

Please let it be clear that I applaud all attempts of creating some diversity in the games on offer and that I applaud especially attempts at peaceful interaction and delicate aesthetics. My criticism comes from the desire to see these games go further down the path that they chose to take, not to stop them from going there. There's a lot of work that remains to be done. I get impatient sometimes. Confused
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MoriartyL
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:41 am Reply with quote
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 69 Location: Israel
I agree with your criticism- Cloud is unplayable. I have played many games, and I couldn't make heads or tails of its controls. I have never criticized it before for the same reason I have never praised it- I didn't understand it (being unable to play it), so I had no right to say anything about it.
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