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| Redkora |
 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:17 pm |
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Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 1491
Location: Here.
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Perhaps it's prevalent in console gaming too, but as a PC gamer, I see a trend toward resisting freedom of play. Maybe playing The Endless Forest, among other things, is helping me see that.
Anyway, here is what I posted on my blog today:
I still like to play Spore. I spend most of my game time in the creators, though. Not only do I have less time to commit to a storyline due to coursework, I am somewhat disappointed by the lack of freedom in the actual story mode itself. This isn't enough to make me not want to play in story mode ever again, and I understand that Will Wright was being pressured by Electronic Arts to pump out Spore at the end of 2008.
My disappointment in the lack of freedom seems to be shared by a few other gamers, but this opinion is sometimes met with a degree of hostility. Disagreement is one thing, but vitrol against freedom in gaming is another. People are free to their opinions, of course. I just have to wonder as to why people, especially many PC gamers, seem to have this derision against freedom of play.
Sometimes when I am browsing through gaming forums, I come across posts that express an anti-freedom sentiment in gaming. For example, on the Spore.com forum, when someone mentioned how cool it would be to have the ability to play in the galaxy as if it were a giant sandbox with no limitations, another user said that this idea was silly. I, for one, would love to be able to create planets from scratch, including being able to create all the animals and plants that would go on that planet. The title of Omnipotent needs to count for something, in my opinion.
This sentiment is also expressed by people who do not understand such games as The Endless Forest. Apart from how bizarre the deer look in the game, many other "hardcore" gamers whine that there is no plot in The Endless Forest. At the risk of coming off as a smart-alack, I have to wonder that this anti-freedom sentiment in gaming has to do with the developer's assumption that gamers lack creativity. While this may be the case for some gamers, game companies seem to perpetuate this lack of creativity by refusing to foster it.
As a PC gamer, I'm a bit jealous of what console players have. They get games such as Okami and Little Big Planet that foster creativity and just plain fun. Why can't PC gamers have that? |
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| Hubalaboo |
| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:03 am |
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Canada
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Ah, I agree with you wholeheartedly (except I'd like you to include Macs in there too.  <3), and probably one of the reasons I came up with this idea; that game is for myself as much as others. I'm really hoping I'll manage to make it someday soon...
And yes, I wish I had a Wii to play Okami... it looks so beautiful. |
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| Ymedron |
| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:21 pm |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Finland
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What? Who would be so smallminded to think that a sandbox-game (which Spore was supposed to be) should not BE a sandbox-game? Ridiculous!
I like to play around with the free creature-creator for Spore, but didn't want to buy the game, mostly due to the ridiculous copy-protection, but I know about it pretty well.  Luckily there are many communities like this one which encourage creativity and freedom. 
I've heard that Okami is harder on Wii. The control for the brush is jumpy and not very sensitive... Playstation 2 version is a lot better. :3 |
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| Wildbluesun |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:21 am |
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 4266
Location: London, Land of Tea and Top Hats
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| Spore is ridiculously overrated, I lost all interest in the space stage... |
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| Ymedron |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:42 am |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Finland
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| I liked the first demo, where you could (from what Will said) be able to create planets. And it was more serious too, I liked the darker style than the kiddy-friendly one they have now. Rarely there are cases when the demo is better than the finished one, but this is one of them. :< |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:39 pm |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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Okami is not a free-from game at all. In structure it's pretty standard. It just looks pretty. And Little Big Planet probably suffers from the same problem as Spore: some elements are highly fun and creative, but the "story mode" is very linear and challenge-based (i.e. you have to do exactly what the game tells you to do or you can't make progress, and doing that becomes very hard after a few levels).
I agree with your sentiment, though. As you can imagine with the games that we make at Tale of Tales, we are constantly confronted with this desire in gamers to be passive. Even people who like the idea of artistic games, prefer to have the content spoonfed to them. They all insist on being active in a game, but they only mean their fingers and thumbs, not their brain. Unless it is for puzzle solving with clear rewards and advantages. But they seem incapable of creative thinking, or at least very reluctant. |
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| Shuyin |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:18 pm |
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Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 15
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@Redkora: You found the answer yourself. The anti-freedom sentiment in games, comes from the fact that game-designers need to be in control of what the player is doing in story driven games, while sandbox games (that have no plot) let you make your own story.
In a story-driven game, the creators need full control over what you can do, in order to gradually advance the story. They have a story to present to you, so it's only natural your freedom is restricted.
If they gave you total freedom, not only they couldn't present the storyline as they wanted to (setting twists and turns, triggering emotions by cutscenes), but you could also get stuck without any other possibility than restarting the game from the beginning. And you'll get frustrated and threaten them you won't buy their games anymore
In a sandbox game however, you're given total freedom of interaction with the game world as you see fit, not bound by gameplay-linearity/storyline-advancement-linearity.
So basically, your post is: 'why aren't there more sandbox games on the PC?' |
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| Ymedron |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:06 pm |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Finland
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Well, you could say oblivion is a semi-sandbox game.
The story (which isn't really that glorious, but anyway) is presented to you with quests, but you have complete freedom whether or not you do the quests, or kill everyone and go happily collecting skulls.
It is unrealistic in the sense, that even when the GREAT LORD EVIL is rampaging, you can still go to pick flowers and he will nicely wait for you.
Like any other aspect, this can be cured with mods. :3 But no mod redeem that flaw exists yet... |
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| Shuyin |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:09 pm |
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Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 15
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I'm sorry, but i don't consider Oblivion and GTA and other similar games, to be sandbox games. All of these games offer a high degree of freedom that you can't have in other games, but it's not complete freedom. These games have a mission/quest based structure and a plot that is advanced in a linear/nonlinear fashion.
If you want a sandbox experience,a feeling of complete freedom, play Crayon Physics Deluxe or whatever other games are open in nature (The Endless Forest is like this, i understand).
To me, it seems that you want the complete freedom and open-ended nature of a sandbox game, in a non-sandbox game, that is story driven and built around missions/quests/tasks. Long story short: you want the impossible. |
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| Ymedron |
| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:26 pm |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Finland
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Yes, that is why I said semi. :3 Complete freedom comes only when the game has no structure, and then it's not a game.
Actually... I wouldn't even consider games without any kind of drill a game, more like a "play" (We have our own word for it, the kind of game children play, with toys, narrating a wild story as they go along)
Are you addressing me with that last phrase? Because I would say that I like objectives. Maybe Michael will say I am too twirled around the normal games, but when I finally get to the point where there is nothing limiting me, nothing forcing me to go on, I quit the game.
For example, in Warcraft. After two years, I finally get to fly. And then I just... Can't play. There is no excitement of sneaking around strong enemies when I can just fly above them, there is no point exploring when I know that I can handle everything I happen across.
So complete freedom isn't that good in a game... Drawing gives one complete freedom to explore every idea, the only difference: You aren't there.
Maybe a easy, 3d drawing program, where you literally draw the world around you, and then explore it, would be a total sandbox-game.
When I referred to the mods, I tried to say that if you are determined and skilled enough, you can remove every aspect of plot, structure and forcing on the game. Or make it so that the game hurries you along.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know how to get there yet. But I am trailing off, better quit this post here. Thank you. |
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| Dnaloiram |
| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:58 pm |
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Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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What are you talking about? If anything, PC gamers get more freedom, in the form of mods. If you have ever played Team Fortress 2 or Quake then you will know what I am talking about. VALVe is particularly good about this, since every game they made they released modding tools for(I think, just tell me if there is a game that doesn't have this feature). Of course you can argue that console games have more freedom with examples like Little Big World, but it's just not true. Yes, the original Spore did not have as much freedom as I would have hoped: Can't make planets, Flora, etc.
But that's where Maxis came in and made an expansion pack for it:Galactic Adventures, allowing players to make planets, and even adventures! And if you like the darker style of the demo, then make an adventure that has a darker style. |
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| Alex H |
| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:12 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2009
Posts: 47
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
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Dnaloiram wrote: What are you talking about? If anything, PC gamers get more freedom, in the form of mods. If you have ever played Team Fortress 2 or Quake then you will know what I am talking about. VALVe is particularly good about this, since every game they made they released modding tools for(I think, just tell me if there is a game that doesn't have this feature). Of course you can argue that console games have more freedom with examples like Little Big World, but it's just not true. Yes, the original Spore did not have as much freedom as I would have hoped: Can't make planets, Flora, etc.
But that's where Maxis came in and made an expansion pack for it:Galactic Adventures, allowing players to make planets, and even adventures! And if you like the darker style of the demo, then make an adventure that has a darker style.
TF2 is hardly an example of full freedom. You have an objective and the only way to complete it is to shoot all the redshirts. The most fun I ever had in TF2, back when I played those type of games, was actually on a Payload map when, due to a glitch, the carts dissapeared, eliminating the goal. The other player and I just messed around on the server for a while.
This goes along with the whole concept of playing with something instead of playing against it. The game should work with you to get the most out of it instead of frustrating you with endless challenges.
A review of Minecraft, a "game" in which you are dropped on a textured terrain and can transform it as a wish, believed it to be pointless and a waste of time. He thought it was completely immature: "Me? I quit playing with Legos a long time ago".
As though pretending to be a space marine isn't a waste of time... |
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| Ricardo |
| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:32 am |
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 36
Location: Liverpool
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I can not take seriously the opinion of someone who say:
"As a PC gamer, I'm a bit jealous of what console players have. They get games such as Okami and Little Big Planet that foster creativity and just plain fun. Why can't PC gamers have that?"
My advice: First learn something about videogames, then express your opinion.
Thanks. |
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| Michael |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:00 am |
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Site Administrator
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 8065
Location: Gent, Belgium
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| Why don't you share your wisdom, Ricardo? |
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| Ricardo |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:16 pm |
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 36
Location: Liverpool
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Sorry if sometimes I am a bit rude. But sometimes is the shorter way to answer someone.
A big part of Redkora text can deserve attention, even if you agree or disagree with it, it can be a interesting matter to discuss. But when he/she say that last sentence about consoles, basically the message for me is "I am lost, I dont know what I am talking about". I dont think that any veteran gamer with knowledge in videogames can say something like that. Everybody can have diferent opinions ans taste, but some opinions can not be taked seriously.
PC games and console games have some diferences, that is true. But to think that console games are more original, artistic, or free than PC games is really far wrong. Console games (and this is unnecesary to tell) are in a 90% basically conventional games, just like PC. LittleBigPlanet or Okami are exceptions, exactly the same than Braid or The Path, just to say two names (if you want more, have a look at my thread about indie games). By the way, I dont know Okami, but I can tell you that LittleBigPlanet is a good game, but not really THAT special. Console players loves HYPES.
My advice, even if it was rude, is still the same: lear a bit more about games. And, of course, if you prefer consoles, buy a console. And if you dont like games, dont play. |
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