Comments on: They want to play… http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/ Auriea Harvey & Michaël Samyn telling tales of Tale of Tales Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:09:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: axcho http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26889 axcho Sun, 31 Aug 2008 00:15:25 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26889 I agree with your last comment, Michael. I think that Braid is definitely a game made for gamers, and judging by its very favorable reception by game reviewers, it has succeeded very well in being a game for gamers. I agree that we need to make different kinds of games for non-gamers (that doesn't mean that the gamer games are not as good or worthwhile, of course). I agree with your last comment, Michael. I think that Braid is definitely a game made for gamers, and judging by its very favorable reception by game reviewers, it has succeeded very well in being a game for gamers.

I agree that we need to make different kinds of games for non-gamers (that doesn’t mean that the gamer games are not as good or worthwhile, of course).

]]> By: Zaphos http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26783 Zaphos Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:30:16 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26783 Interesting point -- this seems to tie in nicely to your post about whimsical play :) Interesting point — this seems to tie in nicely to your post about whimsical play :)

]]> By: Michaël Samyn http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26773 Michaël Samyn Mon, 25 Aug 2008 07:16:00 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26773 I tend to agree with Zaphos. The mechanical handling of games is not hard to learn at all. I think the problem is understanding all the game rules and conventions. And to learn these you need to first be motivated enough. I can imagine that to a lay person, learning that you need to eat the big pill so you can eat the ghosts, seems like an incredible waste of brain power. So it's hard to get motivated to do that. I do believe that games could be designed better to improve this motivation aspect for lay people. To ease new players into the experience. Sadly, most game developers consider this aspect of the design as something extra, something that they want to get done with quickly. While I think that it should be an integral part of the entire design. But designing games is odd to begin with. The purpose of most forms of design (furniture design, graphic design, etc) is to make life <I>easier</I> for its users. The purpose of game design, to some extent, is to make life <I>harder</I>. So I can imagine that, if you choose to make these challenge-based games, it can be difficult to achieve a balance between challenging the player (i.e. "make life harder") and educating and motivating the player (i.e. "make life easier"). As for Braid, JP, from what I hear (I haven't played the game) I don't think it needs to change. It seems to be designed for gamers and rely on game conventions for its meaning. I think the only people who can appreciate Braid is gamers. It may contain certain elements that are attractive to non-gamers. But its essence seems to be hardcore gameplay. And that's just never going to appeal to non-gamers. I think we need to make different kinds of games if we want to give interactive entertainment to the people from to quote in the post above. I tend to agree with Zaphos. The mechanical handling of games is not hard to learn at all. I think the problem is understanding all the game rules and conventions. And to learn these you need to first be motivated enough. I can imagine that to a lay person, learning that you need to eat the big pill so you can eat the ghosts, seems like an incredible waste of brain power. So it’s hard to get motivated to do that.

I do believe that games could be designed better to improve this motivation aspect for lay people. To ease new players into the experience. Sadly, most game developers consider this aspect of the design as something extra, something that they want to get done with quickly. While I think that it should be an integral part of the entire design.

But designing games is odd to begin with. The purpose of most forms of design (furniture design, graphic design, etc) is to make life easier for its users. The purpose of game design, to some extent, is to make life harder. So I can imagine that, if you choose to make these challenge-based games, it can be difficult to achieve a balance between challenging the player (i.e. “make life harder”) and educating and motivating the player (i.e. “make life easier”).

As for Braid, JP, from what I hear (I haven’t played the game) I don’t think it needs to change. It seems to be designed for gamers and rely on game conventions for its meaning. I think the only people who can appreciate Braid is gamers. It may contain certain elements that are attractive to non-gamers. But its essence seems to be hardcore gameplay. And that’s just never going to appeal to non-gamers.
I think we need to make different kinds of games if we want to give interactive entertainment to the people from to quote in the post above.

]]> By: Zaphos http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26765 Zaphos Mon, 25 Aug 2008 00:27:31 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26765 In general I don't think that 'games literacy' is such a huge barrier for people who give it a few minutes and are willing to experiment. It's not a genuinely difficult thing to attain; it's not like language literacy at all. It's something that little kids routinely teach themselves in not-that-much time. Possibly the people mentioned in the quote are being watched as they play, and they're embarrassed to learn? Part of the process of learning is making mistakes, after all, and adults -- especially "smart" ones -- tend to have trouble with that. (Although, if his friends didn't know games could feature a cello, then they're not smart! :-P) In general I don’t think that ‘games literacy’ is such a huge barrier for people who give it a few minutes and are willing to experiment. It’s not a genuinely difficult thing to attain; it’s not like language literacy at all. It’s something that little kids routinely teach themselves in not-that-much time.

Possibly the people mentioned in the quote are being watched as they play, and they’re embarrassed to learn? Part of the process of learning is making mistakes, after all, and adults — especially “smart” ones — tend to have trouble with that.

(Although, if his friends didn’t know games could feature a cello, then they’re not smart! :-P)

]]> By: JP http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26761 JP Sun, 24 Aug 2008 22:31:47 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26761 I'm curious as to what you feel could be changed about Braid that would address this problem, while still preserving what is artistically worthwhile about the game (assuming you do find it artistically worthwhile). I’m curious as to what you feel could be changed about Braid that would address this problem, while still preserving what is artistically worthwhile about the game (assuming you do find it artistically worthwhile).

]]> By: Michaël Samyn http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26666 Michaël Samyn Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:28:01 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26666 Indeed. That's why I think that the whole literacy analogy is a bit skewed (not to mention very presumptuous). Despite the fact that everybody can read, writers still need to do a lot of work to make their work understandable, meaningful and enjoyable. Indeed. That’s why I think that the whole literacy analogy is a bit skewed (not to mention very presumptuous). Despite the fact that everybody can read, writers still need to do a lot of work to make their work understandable, meaningful and enjoyable.

]]> By: Wildbluesun http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26660 Wildbluesun Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:48:02 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26660 <i>"We don't say that there is something wrong with a novel because people who haven't learned to read are unable to appreciate it."</i> You might say that there is something wrong with a novel if every other word it uses is a little-known word that very few people will be able to understand. “We don’t say that there is something wrong with a novel because people who haven’t learned to read are unable to appreciate it.”

You might say that there is something wrong with a novel if every other word it uses is a little-known word that very few people will be able to understand.

]]> By: Michaël Samyn http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/20/they-want-to-play/#comment-26551 Michaël Samyn Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:34:50 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=426#comment-26551 And despite the silly defense of "gameplay literacy" in the comments, Mr. Abbott continues, intelligently: <BLOCKQUOTE>Obviously, Nintendo has capitalized on this audience with casual games, and that's great. But wouldn't it be interesting to make a similar commitment to attract these non-gamers with ambitious, artistic, narrative games that invite them in with open arms, rather than insisting they climb our mountain first?</BLOCKQUOTE> We hear you, Mr. Abbott. We hear you. :) And despite the silly defense of “gameplay literacy” in the comments, Mr. Abbott continues, intelligently:

Obviously, Nintendo has capitalized on this audience with casual games, and that’s great. But wouldn’t it be interesting to make a similar commitment to attract these non-gamers with ambitious, artistic, narrative games that invite them in with open arms, rather than insisting they climb our mountain first?

We hear you, Mr. Abbott. We hear you. :)

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