Comments on: The other kind of playing http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/ Auriea Harvey & Michaël Samyn telling tales of Tale of Tales Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:25:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: axcho http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26463 axcho Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:53:32 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26463 I don't have anything in particular to add to this discussion yet, but I would just like to offer some encouragement and thanks for the great blog posts and the discussions that result in the comments! :D (also, yay for Knytt, and I like exploration games too, and hmm, that is interesting how calm death is in Knytt/Knytt Stories) Have you listened to Jonathan Blow's <a href="http://braid-game.com/news/?p=242" rel="nofollow">somewhat recent lecture Games Need You</a> on the tension between story and gameplay that most games exhibit? I'm curious what you'd think of it. It's fun for me to listen to all these conflicting but brilliant ideas about games, especially from people like you two and Jonathan Blow and Jenova Chen, since you are actually putting your ideas into practice with the games you make. :) I don’t have anything in particular to add to this discussion yet, but I would just like to offer some encouragement and thanks for the great blog posts and the discussions that result in the comments! :D

(also, yay for Knytt, and I like exploration games too, and hmm, that is interesting how calm death is in Knytt/Knytt Stories)

Have you listened to Jonathan Blow’s somewhat recent lecture Games Need You on the tension between story and gameplay that most games exhibit? I’m curious what you’d think of it. It’s fun for me to listen to all these conflicting but brilliant ideas about games, especially from people like you two and Jonathan Blow and Jenova Chen, since you are actually putting your ideas into practice with the games you make. :)

]]> By: Ben http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26391 Ben Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:03:38 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26391 Knytt Tales, the sequal, was a bit better. It was easier to move around. I liked how calm death was in Knytt Tales because you just fizzled out. My friends and i called it fluffing. It was a completely different take on death than games like Megaman where you explode into energy or Mario where it insults you with music. Knytt Tales, the sequal, was a bit better. It was easier to move around.

I liked how calm death was in Knytt Tales because you just fizzled out. My friends and i called it fluffing. It was a completely different take on death than games like Megaman where you explode into energy or Mario where it insults you with music.

]]> By: Michaël Samyn http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26390 Michaël Samyn Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:53:31 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26390 I liked Knytt a lot in those first five minutes where you can indeed just walk around and enjoy. And then it suddenly became difficult to get somewhere. That's where the fun ended for me and I closed the game. I like games that allow you to explore. I think exploration is one of the most enjoyable things that you can do in a computer games. That's why I find it so odd that so few games are designed around this kind of fun. I liked Knytt a lot in those first five minutes where you can indeed just walk around and enjoy. And then it suddenly became difficult to get somewhere. That’s where the fun ended for me and I closed the game.

I like games that allow you to explore. I think exploration is one of the most enjoyable things that you can do in a computer games. That’s why I find it so odd that so few games are designed around this kind of fun.

]]> By: Michaël Samyn http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26389 Michaël Samyn Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:49:26 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26389 The Sims is an interesting case because its game design is indeed extremely rules-driven and goal-oriented while its marketing advertises it as an open-ended game. But thanks to mods, cheats and general abuse, the players have turned The Sims into exactly that. Still, it doesn't fit in this list because the game's design does not cater to whimsical play directly (since it's so goal-oriented), it merely creates a lot of room for it (possibly by <I>not</I> designing certain elements). The Sims is an interesting case because its game design is indeed extremely rules-driven and goal-oriented while its marketing advertises it as an open-ended game. But thanks to mods, cheats and general abuse, the players have turned The Sims into exactly that.
Still, it doesn’t fit in this list because the game’s design does not cater to whimsical play directly (since it’s so goal-oriented), it merely creates a lot of room for it (possibly by not designing certain elements).

]]> By: Dock http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26388 Dock Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:32:03 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26388 Knytt immediately springs to mind as a game of relative whimsy. It's all about quiet exploration. There's plenty of progress to be made and objects to collect, but much of the experience is about finding locations and walking around. There's opportunity for whimsical play within other games too. I remember playing Ragnarok Online with my now-girlfriend. We went for a long walk and eventually found some giant flowers in a unoccupied area, and some other strange items where no-one was around. I suppose no-one was there because there weren't many enemies in that area, but it was fun to have made the journey, running away from enemies earlier, and sitting down and enjoying the 'discovery'. Equally, exploring the world of Shadow of the Colossus brings about much of the same emotion, leaving your horse for a moment to climb some ledges just to see what the view is like from up there. Knytt immediately springs to mind as a game of relative whimsy. It’s all about quiet exploration. There’s plenty of progress to be made and objects to collect, but much of the experience is about finding locations and walking around.

There’s opportunity for whimsical play within other games too. I remember playing Ragnarok Online with my now-girlfriend. We went for a long walk and eventually found some giant flowers in a unoccupied area, and some other strange items where no-one was around. I suppose no-one was there because there weren’t many enemies in that area, but it was fun to have made the journey, running away from enemies earlier, and sitting down and enjoying the ‘discovery’. Equally, exploring the world of Shadow of the Colossus brings about much of the same emotion, leaving your horse for a moment to climb some ledges just to see what the view is like from up there.

]]> By: n.n http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26383 n.n Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:26:21 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26383 ...Don't tell me nobody's mentioned the most successful single-player PC game in recent memory? "The Sims" and its various offshoots are dreadfully dull, and over very quickly, if you just try to play them competitively. I submit that almost anyone who enjoys that sort of game enjoys it on its whimsical merits, and not on its merits as a competitive game. …Don’t tell me nobody’s mentioned the most successful single-player PC game in recent memory?

“The Sims” and its various offshoots are dreadfully dull, and over very quickly, if you just try to play them competitively. I submit that almost anyone who enjoys that sort of game enjoys it on its whimsical merits, and not on its merits as a competitive game.

]]> By: Ben http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26351 Ben Mon, 11 Aug 2008 02:20:28 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26351 Calvinball! anyone remember Calvinball from Calvin and Hobbes? The funny thing is rules were actually important, but they were fluid and generated real time. That'd make an interesting videogame. Calvinball! anyone remember Calvinball from Calvin and Hobbes? The funny thing is rules were actually important, but they were fluid and generated real time. That’d make an interesting videogame.

]]> By: Jordan S. http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26349 Jordan S. Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:20:16 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26349 There's Electroplankton, but that's more a musical instrument than a game. And there's Animal Crossing, but that's more a set of fake friends in a simulation of nostalgic, idealised village life. Looking back further, there's Doshin the Giant, which has no real overall aim, and beyond anything one sets themselves there's only the option of meeting the requirements to have various monuments built. And then there's Majora's Mask (part-Animal Crossing prototype, part-Ocarina of Time expansion pack and part-something in itself) and the Monkey Island games, which come to mind as things which do have traditional gameplay aims, but in which the small details discovered just by playing about and looking around the place feel more important than the "proper" aims. In Monkey Island games, the real goal is to get all the possible responses from people and avoid asking the question which will advance you through the conversation tree, as though it will advance through the story it will make all the jokes you could have heard inaccessible. Monkey Island is very linear in any other respect, however, while Majora's Mask is interesting for being split into two simultaneous quests, one linear and one non-linear. But I'm getting far off-topic with all that. The only conclusion I can come to is that I don't understand your terminology. The way I've been sorting them is that if something doesn't have any aims for which success in achieving them can be measured, then it's not a game but a different kind of toy (a toy being a tool – whether a physical object or a concept – for assisting play, which typically involves imposing rules in order to generate ideas, as it can be hard to choose from an unrestrained number of possibilities). But children will refer to a scenario for improvised make-believe play as a "game" (or at least, I remember doing so) so there goes that definition… There’s Electroplankton, but that’s more a musical instrument than a game. And there’s Animal Crossing, but that’s more a set of fake friends in a simulation of nostalgic, idealised village life. Looking back further, there’s Doshin the Giant, which has no real overall aim, and beyond anything one sets themselves there’s only the option of meeting the requirements to have various monuments built. And then there’s Majora’s Mask (part-Animal Crossing prototype, part-Ocarina of Time expansion pack and part-something in itself) and the Monkey Island games, which come to mind as things which do have traditional gameplay aims, but in which the small details discovered just by playing about and looking around the place feel more important than the “proper” aims. In Monkey Island games, the real goal is to get all the possible responses from people and avoid asking the question which will advance you through the conversation tree, as though it will advance through the story it will make all the jokes you could have heard inaccessible. Monkey Island is very linear in any other respect, however, while Majora’s Mask is interesting for being split into two simultaneous quests, one linear and one non-linear.

But I’m getting far off-topic with all that. The only conclusion I can come to is that I don’t understand your terminology. The way I’ve been sorting them is that if something doesn’t have any aims for which success in achieving them can be measured, then it’s not a game but a different kind of toy (a toy being a tool – whether a physical object or a concept – for assisting play, which typically involves imposing rules in order to generate ideas, as it can be hard to choose from an unrestrained number of possibilities). But children will refer to a scenario for improvised make-believe play as a “game” (or at least, I remember doing so) so there goes that definition…

]]> By: Ben http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26328 Ben Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:53:23 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26328 Woah, 40? coulda fooled me... i thought thirties or something. lol. Well I'm a twenty year old who thinks himself a philosopher, so pardon me if i probe past my experience :-) Woah, 40? coulda fooled me… i thought thirties or something. lol.

Well I’m a twenty year old who thinks himself a philosopher, so pardon me if i probe past my experience :-)

]]> By: Michaël Samyn http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2008/08/04/the-other-kind-of-playing/#comment-26319 Michaël Samyn Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:26:04 +0000 http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26319 <I>Because that's what all of this is really about. I'm a 40 year old man desperately seeking a game that I would like to play. And there is absolutely nothing on the market (hasn't been for years) that allows me to play. So excuse me if I get grumpy sometimes. ;)</I> Because that’s what all of this is really about. I’m a 40 year old man desperately seeking a game that I would like to play. And there is absolutely nothing on the market (hasn’t been for years) that allows me to play. So excuse me if I get grumpy sometimes. ;)

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