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	<title>Comments on: Ten reasons why computer games are not games</title>
	<atom:link href="http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/</link>
	<description>Auriea Harvey &#038; Michaël Samyn telling tales of Tale of Tales</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: How Much Do Any Of Us Know About Game Design? : Metaverse Network</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-2307</link>
		<dc:creator>How Much Do Any Of Us Know About Game Design? : Metaverse Network</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-2307</guid>
		<description>[...] game designers can be ignorant and myopic as well (myself included, obviously)&#8211;for example, a recent informal argument about the nature of digital games put forward by the talented studio Tale of Tales was profoundly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] game designers can be ignorant and myopic as well (myself included, obviously)&#8211;for example, a recent informal argument about the nature of digital games put forward by the talented studio Tale of Tales was profoundly [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1879</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1879</guid>
		<description>You're right about the combination of things leading to a result that can be greater then the sum of its parts. But I'm not sure if combination is the onlique "unique" property of games. I have a feeling that here's something else, something truly new, a new element in the mix. We can't call it "gameplay" because games are ancient. But digital media allow for new forms of play, of interaction, new experiences, that were not possible before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right about the combination of things leading to a result that can be greater then the sum of its parts. But I&#8217;m not sure if combination is the onlique &#8220;unique&#8221; property of games. I have a feeling that here&#8217;s something else, something truly new, a new element in the mix. We can&#8217;t call it &#8220;gameplay&#8221; because games are ancient. But digital media allow for new forms of play, of interaction, new experiences, that were not possible before.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1878</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1878</guid>
		<description>This post was revived when Kieron Gillen &lt;a HREF="http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?p=1434" rel="nofollow"&gt;discovered it&lt;/A&gt; and sent a bunch of his minions to bash us, here and on other blogs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post was revived when Kieron Gillen <a HREF="http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?p=1434" rel="nofollow">discovered it</a> and sent a bunch of his minions to bash us, here and on other blogs.</p>
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		<title>By: rinkuhero</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1875</link>
		<dc:creator>rinkuhero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1875</guid>
		<description>I agree that the game element is optional, but so are all of the others. Text adventures remove the visual element, there are games without sound and games without stories, etc.

I think what's new is the combination of so many at once. So far the game part of it has been emphasized more than the others, people have seen them as "games plus other things added in to improve the game" and not actually combined the forms too carefully. I don't think it's any one part that makes computer games unique, it's the combination of the parts.

Think of music videos -- they're a combination of music and video, there's nothing unique to either of those parts, but when combined you get something new, greater than either part. I think the ties that bind the different forms of art, the different ways that they can be combined, is what's unique about computer games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the game element is optional, but so are all of the others. Text adventures remove the visual element, there are games without sound and games without stories, etc.</p>
<p>I think what&#8217;s new is the combination of so many at once. So far the game part of it has been emphasized more than the others, people have seen them as &#8220;games plus other things added in to improve the game&#8221; and not actually combined the forms too carefully. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s any one part that makes computer games unique, it&#8217;s the combination of the parts.</p>
<p>Think of music videos &#8212; they&#8217;re a combination of music and video, there&#8217;s nothing unique to either of those parts, but when combined you get something new, greater than either part. I think the ties that bind the different forms of art, the different ways that they can be combined, is what&#8217;s unique about computer games.</p>
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		<title>By: rinkuhero</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1874</link>
		<dc:creator>rinkuhero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1874</guid>
		<description>That was a typo, I meant "new responses" -- there seems to be more comments to this entry than any other here, and most of them are relatively new compared to the entry's posting date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a typo, I meant &#8220;new responses&#8221; &#8212; there seems to be more comments to this entry than any other here, and most of them are relatively new compared to the entry&#8217;s posting date.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1806</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1806</guid>
		<description>What news responses?

I agree that "games" are a hybrid artform. And I consider the game element optional. Like all the others, it has its own history and its own excellence. A &lt;I&gt;computer&lt;/I&gt; game, however, is something new. We still need to discover what makes it so unique, so appealing. I personally don't believe it's the game element, if only because games are not new.

That being said, people play computer games for many different reasons of course, and not just because they are a unique form of entertainment, They might just like the music. Or the gameplay. Or something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What news responses?</p>
<p>I agree that &#8220;games&#8221; are a hybrid artform. And I consider the game element optional. Like all the others, it has its own history and its own excellence. A <i>computer</i> game, however, is something new. We still need to discover what makes it so unique, so appealing. I personally don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s the game element, if only because games are not new.</p>
<p>That being said, people play computer games for many different reasons of course, and not just because they are a unique form of entertainment, They might just like the music. Or the gameplay. Or something else.</p>
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		<title>By: rinkuhero</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1802</link>
		<dc:creator>rinkuhero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1802</guid>
		<description>Wow, what's with all the news responses all of the sudden?

Anyway, I agree that most of the objections are kind of weird. All general statements have exceptions, and pointing out one exception doesn't make a general statement less useful. If I say "what goes up must come down", and someone else says "you're an idiot, what about space satellites?" they aren't disproving what I'm saying, they're just pointing out where it doesn't apply. A lot of these responses are of that type.

How I approach this subject, for the record, is that I believe computer games are "games plus other forms of art". E.g. a game is a game, a computer game is a game plus a painting plus a movie plus anything else you want to add. It's a *combined* media, it's not a single media, and different people focus on different parts of the combination. Just as opera and musicals combine music and theater, games combine virtually every form of art into one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, what&#8217;s with all the news responses all of the sudden?</p>
<p>Anyway, I agree that most of the objections are kind of weird. All general statements have exceptions, and pointing out one exception doesn&#8217;t make a general statement less useful. If I say &#8220;what goes up must come down&#8221;, and someone else says &#8220;you&#8217;re an idiot, what about space satellites?&#8221; they aren&#8217;t disproving what I&#8217;m saying, they&#8217;re just pointing out where it doesn&#8217;t apply. A lot of these responses are of that type.</p>
<p>How I approach this subject, for the record, is that I believe computer games are &#8220;games plus other forms of art&#8221;. E.g. a game is a game, a computer game is a game plus a painting plus a movie plus anything else you want to add. It&#8217;s a *combined* media, it&#8217;s not a single media, and different people focus on different parts of the combination. Just as opera and musicals combine music and theater, games combine virtually every form of art into one.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1633</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1633</guid>
		<description>I started writing a response to all the objections made. It was going to be a series of posts, one for each point. But then I realized that I didn't have much more to say. I found myself repeating the introduction to this post in different ways. But you might as well just read it again.

I also found that I actually agree with most of the objections made. If you look at it from a certain angle, everything I said is wrong. I knew that. That's even sort of the point.  I'm only trying to look at things from &lt;I&gt;another&lt;/I&gt; angle. Because I'm not satisfied with the intellectual status quo. And I see a more glorious future for this medium than a place on the shelf in the toy store.

Much like the people who responded really like playing games, they probably saw my statements as a challenge, an obstacle to overcome. For me, however, there is always multiple realities going on simultaneously. Not one of them is the only true one or the correct one. If anything, I'm interested in adding more possible realities, rather than reducing their number to come to some kind of resolution. I'm not a gamer. There's a reason why I did my school thesis about &lt;a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pataphysics" rel="nofollow"&gt;'Pataphysics&lt;/A&gt; -the science of imaginary solutions... ;)

Ultimately, like so many discussions, this would have become a semantic one. And those are so boring! Maybe the title to this post should have been "Ten Reason why computer games are not &lt;I&gt;just&lt;/I&gt; games" or "Ten reasons why I could think people &lt;I&gt;prefer&lt;/I&gt; playing computer games over other games". Fine by me if that makes it more acceptable for you. Ultimately, I'd rather spend my time inventing more imaginary solutions than attempting to reduce reality to a single meaning.

That is why I like the interactive medium in the first place! It allows multiple realities to coexist happily. Ambiguity is at its core. Sid Meier might like games because they are a series of interesting choices. I like them when they allow me not to make a choice. To see, and be, many things simultaneously.

&lt;a HREF="http://www.tale-of-tales.com/tales/RAM.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Embrace ambiguity!
Embrace non-linearity!
Reject plot!

Realtime is a poetic technology.&lt;/A&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started writing a response to all the objections made. It was going to be a series of posts, one for each point. But then I realized that I didn&#8217;t have much more to say. I found myself repeating the introduction to this post in different ways. But you might as well just read it again.</p>
<p>I also found that I actually agree with most of the objections made. If you look at it from a certain angle, everything I said is wrong. I knew that. That&#8217;s even sort of the point.  I&#8217;m only trying to look at things from <i>another</i> angle. Because I&#8217;m not satisfied with the intellectual status quo. And I see a more glorious future for this medium than a place on the shelf in the toy store.</p>
<p>Much like the people who responded really like playing games, they probably saw my statements as a challenge, an obstacle to overcome. For me, however, there is always multiple realities going on simultaneously. Not one of them is the only true one or the correct one. If anything, I&#8217;m interested in adding more possible realities, rather than reducing their number to come to some kind of resolution. I&#8217;m not a gamer. There&#8217;s a reason why I did my school thesis about <a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pataphysics" rel="nofollow">&#8216;Pataphysics</a> -the science of imaginary solutions&#8230; ;)</p>
<p>Ultimately, like so many discussions, this would have become a semantic one. And those are so boring! Maybe the title to this post should have been &#8220;Ten Reason why computer games are not <i>just</i> games&#8221; or &#8220;Ten reasons why I could think people <i>prefer</i> playing computer games over other games&#8221;. Fine by me if that makes it more acceptable for you. Ultimately, I&#8217;d rather spend my time inventing more imaginary solutions than attempting to reduce reality to a single meaning.</p>
<p>That is why I like the interactive medium in the first place! It allows multiple realities to coexist happily. Ambiguity is at its core. Sid Meier might like games because they are a series of interesting choices. I like them when they allow me not to make a choice. To see, and be, many things simultaneously.</p>
<p><a HREF="http://www.tale-of-tales.com/tales/RAM.html" rel="nofollow">Embrace ambiguity!<br />
Embrace non-linearity!<br />
Reject plot!</p>
<p>Realtime is a poetic technology.</a></p>
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		<title>By: A Link to the Future &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How Is This Game Different From All Other Games?</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1600</link>
		<dc:creator>A Link to the Future &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How Is This Game Different From All Other Games?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1600</guid>
		<description>[...] computer (video) games really games?  These guys say no (h/t GameSetWatch).  I hate to complain about another thoughtful piece right [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] computer (video) games really games?  These guys say no (h/t GameSetWatch).  I hate to complain about another thoughtful piece right [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1537</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2007/06/25/ten-reasons-why-computer-games-are-not-games/#comment-1537</guid>
		<description>&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;“why are many of the posters so concerned with the similarities between computer games and other games?”

the same reason anybody working within a genre or hybrid genre or cross genre is interested in its relationship to its precendents, consituents and associations. Being informed and well researched about all aspects of your pratice is a good thing. (...) Legacy is history, and history is there to be learned from.&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

Agreed. But contemporary videogames don't just have old videogames or non-videogames as their precedents! We also need to learn about architecture, painting, poetry, literature, sound art, music, sculpture, theater, film, industrial design, furniture design, comic strips, performance art, opera, photography, etcetera! If I seem a bit overzealous in minimizing the importance of older games for contemporary ones, it's only because most game developers and gamers seem to be over-focussed on only game design. There's a lot more to this medium than games!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“why are many of the posters so concerned with the similarities between computer games and other games?”</p>
<p>the same reason anybody working within a genre or hybrid genre or cross genre is interested in its relationship to its precendents, consituents and associations. Being informed and well researched about all aspects of your pratice is a good thing. (&#8230;) Legacy is history, and history is there to be learned from.</p></blockquote>
<p>Agreed. But contemporary videogames don&#8217;t just have old videogames or non-videogames as their precedents! We also need to learn about architecture, painting, poetry, literature, sound art, music, sculpture, theater, film, industrial design, furniture design, comic strips, performance art, opera, photography, etcetera! If I seem a bit overzealous in minimizing the importance of older games for contemporary ones, it&#8217;s only because most game developers and gamers seem to be over-focussed on only game design. There&#8217;s a lot more to this medium than games!</p>
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